posted 03-25-2007 05:53 PM ET (US)            

Twins are still the best for going far offshore because if you have an engine fail you can still get home on plane, as opposed to putting home with a kicker motor.

posted 03-25-2007 06:58 PM ET (US)            

"Making oil" or crankcase contamination with fuel. This is usually caused by improper break in which fails to fully seat the rings.

Failure to follow manufacturer's instructions in the Service Manuals exactly during routine maintenance. Cam belt tension adjustment on Suzuki DF70s was a real headache until techs were properly trained. Broke a lot of cam noses off!!

posted 03-25-2007 07:16 PM ET (US)            

That said, you couldn't GIVE me a four stroke outboard. If I want that kind of maintenance issues, I'll go back to diesels. The Evinrude ETEC engine is looking like my cup of tea, but I think I'll run these old carbureted motors until one of them blows....

Good luck to you, whatever you decide. It's your money, and your decision. But there is nothing like the feeling of control that twin engines gives, and when the closest shoreline is 250 miles away, you will truly know that 2 is twice as good as 1!

posted 03-25-2007 07:25 PM ET (US)            

The short answer: Fuel and Electrical.

Clean fuel and properly charged batteries, along with following the manufacturers specs, helps on all modern motors.

Pro's and Con's on boths sides of Twins vs. Single. On the West Coast of the U.S., a good VHF Radio is as good or better that a second motor (IMHO).

If price is not a concern, go for the twins and let us know how she runs. On a 22' Revenge, she would look sweet sporting a clean pair on a setback bracket!

Keep us posted with your decision.

posted 03-25-2007 08:45 PM ET (US)            

Two-strokes, ports, no oil except what is in the fuel is inherently more prone to failure and excessive wear. For a sport person that is a problem. Long periods of non-use, poor fuel, a bad sensor to mix your oil correctly and you have more chances of frying your motor or having excessive carbon build up on your pistons and rings.

posted 03-25-2007 10:15 PM ET (US)            

In the big picture, we live in the technology of 2007. Is it really that big of a deal that the complicated outboards of today require batteries? In the context of a potential outboard purchase, should this be deciding factor?

posted 03-25-2007 10:57 PM ET (US)            

I have asked about hours on 4 strokes on thehulltruth and I also know personally of someone with a 4 stroke honda that has over 3500 hours and the motor is still running strong. The person onthehulltruth put over 4,000 hours on twin yamahas and sold them thinking that they needed replacing. He said that he regrets selling them because the person that he sold them to is still using them and they are running well.

My 115 efi yamaha has 470 hours on it. Compared to how it is running and comparing it to what my 2 stroke 70 johnson ran like with the same hours, it seems like night and day. This 4 stroke still feels and sounds new and barely broken in.

4 strokes are inherently better lubricated. That is a big deal if you are talking about longevity.

posted 03-25-2007 11:53 PM ET (US)            

Inherently better than what? Compared to DFI 2-strokes? No way. 4-stroke splashes increasingly contaminated oil on the parts to be lubricated, DFI 2-stroke injects, new clean oil all the time. Old fashioned 2-strokes also got fresh oil all the time.

Regarding longevity, 4-stroke outboards don't have much of a track record yet. As time goes on and they age, some of their weaknesses, particularly the ones that are neglected like many 2-stroke outboards have been, will begin to show.

posted 03-26-2007 02:09 AM ET (US)            

When I use to mess around with motorcycles, the 2 strokes always wore out twice as fast a 4 cycle motorcyle. So, yes, I do believe that 4 strokes are inherently better at longevitgy than 2 strokes. Look at automobiles. If 2 strokes were better why don't we have stroke cars?

The etecs, have specialized injection systems that are complex with sensors and controlled by electronics. Great when they are working but you still have to worry about them failing. Do you buy the expensive oil and get the upgraded chip or do you stay with the standard oil, etc....

With the 4stroke, oil in the crankcase for lubrication, gas in the gas tank for fuel. simple...no worry.

Until the etecs or similar 2 strokes show that they will consistently last as long as a 4 stroke, at this point in time, I would spend my thousands of dollars on a 4 stroke outboard for a fishing boat. I know of 4 strokes lasting over 3500-4,000 hours..can't say that about any etecs at this point in time. Hopefully, we will start to hear of etecs lasting for thousands of hours of trouble free performance.

If i really had to have the performance for something like waterskiing and longevity was not a priorit and weight was a big problem then I would go with an E-tec.

When the E tecs first came out I was a big fan. I still am a fan and hope that they do turn out to be longlived motors. So, maybe with the 4 stroke as competition, that will also force them to lower prices as well.

posted 03-26-2007 08:11 AM ET (US)            

What grade of oil should I use? What grade did I use last time? Is it a special blend?

Four-stroke motors have elaborate mechanical systems of valves and cams that are complex and controlled by electronics. They are great when they are working but you still have to worry about them failing.

posted 03-26-2007 08:47 AM ET (US)            

I'd argue that 'owning 2-strokes' for 20 years and now owning a 4-stroke is like owning a Ford Pinto and saying you'd never buy another Ford. Times/technology have changed.

A brand new technology *anything* (two stroke or four stroke) is going to be better than what you used to run.

That said, I've been impressed with the reports from owners of the larger (90 HP plus) Honda motors, which have been out for awhile now (heard very negative things about the small 9.9 Honda used in commercial duty at fishing lodges). The "old" Honda 4-strokes were a bit louder/noisier than the current fleet of 4-strokes from competitors and the newer Honda motors.

Finally, regarding comparing auto to outboard motors. There really, truly can be no comparision unless you drive your car in 1st gear everywhere. Automobile engines have the significant benefit of a transmission, which keeps the operating speeds at significantly lower levels than an outboard's standard operation (above 3,000 RPM for a significant percentage of time).

Regarding the original poster's question:
I'd worry most about whether I was burning oil, the status of my oil filter, and the problem of "making oil" as mentioned previously.

There is no reason to believe that modern-day equivilent motors of both 2 and 4 stroke technology won't have similar duty life given appropriate and recommended maintenance (which I believe few people follow). The question is: how much will that recommended and appropriate maintenance cost you over the lifetime of the motor? That will depend on your skills to maintain your own motor and your use of the motor (i.e. how many hours each season, what kind of service, etc.).

I also believe that you are making the right choice to go with twin engines, in the case that one develops a problem far offshore.

One instance of this happening will "pay for" the other motor in your mind.

Good luck.

posted 03-26-2007 11:14 AM ET (US)            

This means a minimum of 115 h.p. per each engine, perhaps more if they are 4-strokes since they tend to have less low-end torque than the same horsepower 2-stroke. A pair of E-TEC 115's or Mercury Optimax 115's would both total 750 pounds, which is the maximum you should consider on a 22' hull per Boston Whaler. A pair of 90 h.p. E-TECs would be nice and light, but may not be strong enough to plane your boat on a single engine.

Here's a good discussion on the topic, but keep in mind it's a few years old, and there are a few more engine choices available now. http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001837.html

To close, I think you will get excellent reliability with a DFI 2-stroke (such as E-TEC or Optimax) or a 4-stroke. Both engine types are quiet, smoke free and dependable. The DFI's are lighter and generally have better low-end torque, which in my opinion makes them a better choice for repowering an older boat that was built in an era when the only choices were lightweight 2-strokes. I went through this analysis when I repowered my Outrage 22 Cuddy last year, and decided on an E-TEC 200 along side my existing 15 h.p. auxiliary motor. I run 8-15 miles offshore in the Pacific, and feel that this gives me plenty of reliability. The E-TEC is fast, strong and has been flawless in its first year of operation. I'd make the same choice if I had to do it again. Here's the thread on the motors I considered for repower: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/003945.html

posted 03-26-2007 01:06 PM ET (US)            

Modern vehicle engines have a closed cooling system and maintain the operating temperature of the engine in a narrow band. They also tend to maintain the engine temperature fairly high, and this helps with emissions. It also helps keep contaminants out of the oil. But outboard motors tend to be run in cold water and the cooling system cannot keep the engine in a narrow temperature range. So the oil system builds up water and contaminants.

posted 03-26-2007 01:47 PM ET (US)            

Now I am not bashing DFI technology and I HONESTLY think if E-tec gets this right it will revolutionize the outboard industry and 4 strokes may go away like the Dodo. But until I see them going 3000+ hours I am still not relying on a $1 chip to feed my $13k engine. Sure it can run 5 hours with no oil but I bet it will still need a rebuild from scored cyl walls. I also have 3 major engine rebuilders in my area. About once a year I see them selling a rebuilt 4 stroke, most are nearly new DFI's or old school 2's. Main reason for this rant is because I see so many posts from people that are armchair mechanics or outboard engine brochure afficionados. I have owned them all and fixed them all and rebuilt a few and even though 4 srokes are not the Holy Grail of engines or technology...they are reliable which is what I need most when I turn the key. Nothing is more disheartening(or expensive) than hearing the #2 piston blow because my carb ran a bit lean when you are going 30mph...trust me on that.

posted 03-26-2007 04:24 PM ET (US)            

There was a very good article testing oils on thehulltruth. forum

Pennzoil came out a winner for the price. I also like k and N filters which are rated the highest and are half the cost of original yamaha filters. You can get them at autozone. They are made in the same factory that makes Mobil 1 filters.

Just change out fluids and filter every 100 hours and check the dipstick for oil level and you shouldn't have to worry much about the oil.

On a four stroke you do have to worry more about the anodes and check them on the maintenance schedule.

As with any brand there are lemons and bad batches for all motors. I have heard of some complaints of corrosion problems on 90 mercs and a recall on the powerhead of honda 130hp.

Bottom line for me, I wouldn't trade my 115 yamaha efi for any other powerplant of similar size if given the choice.

It is quiet, I get over 5 mpg on my 18 1/2 footer, and has been the most trouble free, best motor ever.

posted 03-26-2007 05:52 PM ET (US)            

Haven't had any trouble with the 4 stroke out on the water.

I can't see any problems unique to 4 strokes. Any motor could have an unexpected electrical component failure or waterpump failure or fuel delivery problem. Haven't read of any particular troublesome areas that are unique to 4 strokes either.

posted 03-26-2007 10:39 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Are any of you mechanics? I do not think so from what I have read. Oil filters going bad? Where did that come from? Sludge? Do you have those problems with your car...

---

Hmmm. Am I the only one who has heard about the sludge problem in Toyota's 1997-2002 4-cylinder and 6 cylinder engines? Toyota has not admitted any fault but they are paying for failed motors. My point is that sludge can indeed be a problem in a modern 4 stroke engine.

posted 03-26-2007 11:48 PM ET (US)            

Now I don't own any four-stroke motors myself, but, if you were thinking about getting a 90-HP Mercury with carburetors, there is one problem I bet I could tell you about...

posted 03-27-2007 12:29 AM ET (US)            

But the problem is solved, Mercury doesn't make 4 strokes with carburetors anymore(except kicker motors). And I now have a 2007 90 hp Veradito. :- )

Warren

posted 03-27-2007 11:28 AM ET (US)            

A little info regarding the current automotive industry’s lengthened service intervals, I have been in the automotive industry for more than twenty years, and during this time I have watched car manufacturers extend their service intervals on a consistent basis in order to get a favorable JD Powers cost of maintenance rating. Their claim is that current technological improvements in lubricants and engineering have made it possible to extend the time between oil changes. This may have some truth in theory, however, in many cases the proximity of the catalytic converter to the oil pan and the extreme confinement of the engine compartment, negates the so called benefit of longer life lubricants. Toyota and other’s recommended 7500 mile, and in some cases longer, oil change recommendation leaves no margin for error. 7500 miles, at an average speed of 35mph is the rough equivalent of 214 hours of operation, which is more than twice the recommended service interval of four-stroke outboard manufacturers. The car manufacturers are in the business of selling cars. They would love to sell you a new car every three to five years, and if their product lasts just beyond that without costing you a lot in maintenance than they have succeeded. If you plan to own the car for longer that the common “itch cycle”, than do not buy into the extended service interval sales pitch. Change your oil every 3500 miles or every four months.

Joe

P.S. don’t let the hacks at “iffy lube” touch your car.

posted 03-27-2007 11:47 AM ET (US)            

I've been taking my car to Jiffy Lube, aka Lube 10 for the past 20 years. My 1986 Mercedes recently roll to 405,000 miles on the stock diesel motor.

I'll bet that most outboard failures are due to owner/operator error. Lack of maintenance, checking of fluids, etc....

When have you last checked your dip stick on your 4 stroke outboard?

posted 03-27-2007 01:15 PM ET (US)            

I do not know much about Lube-10. But check this story out, it's rather long but well worth it. These kinds of places are under an incredible amount of preasure from above to up-sell services. They are generally staffed with underqualified personnel. They are convenient, and if you only need an oil change, and can live with rounded off drain plugs, the occasional screwdriver left in the engine compartment, (personal experience: it bounced around untill it caught the fan blade and impaled itself in the plastic tank of my radiator, when I was TOO BUSY to take my truck to my regular mechanic. Thanks to a digital camara and the admission of the manager on the phone that he was indeed missing a screwdriver, they replaced my radiator free of charge) than by all means go to "Iffy Lubes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCAJ8ULnaI

posted 03-29-2007 03:55 PM ET (US)         

Maintenance consisted of changing the oil, filter and plugs once a year in the driveway, spraying down the block with Boeshield and changing the lower unit lube. I bet I didn't spend eight hours and $150 on maintenance in four years. Never took the motor to the dealer for any valve adjustments. I did change the impeller once in my driveway - less than $100 in parts and less than 2 hours work.

While I did not put as many hours on the motor as I would have liked, I think the kind of sporadic use my Yamaha got is harder on a motor's carburators/fuel delivery systems than running a motor eight hours a day, five days a week where one is constantly running fresh fuel through the system. When a guide who uses a motor hundreds of days a year gets thousands of hours out of the motor, I don't think that such use is necessarily applicable to a boater who used the motor like I did - every other weekend for a short 5 month boating season.