posted 07-05-2011 03:11 PM ET (US)            

The SeaPro and Mariner engines are different depending on the years.

posted 07-06-2011 12:04 AM ET (US)         

Correcting Jim's remark, the Mercury 40,50 and & 60 four strokes are all Mercury, originally manufactured and assembled in Fond Du Lac but now assembled in China as a cost saving. They are not "somebody else's" engine.

posted 07-06-2011 11:50 AM ET (US)            

Yamaha made that engine from 83-95 or so from what I got through their website parts reference(been 2 years so could be off some) and that is what is throwing me off. I know or thought I knew that yamaha nolonger made engines for Mariner in the 90's(except maybe larger 4 strokes through joint ventures) so now I am in a quandry. Did Yamaha still make the 6/8 for Mariner or is my engine a Yamaha and somehow I am really screwed up along with all my friends who also swear it says Mariner on the cowl. The paint under the hood is like new and it looks like Mariner silver. The engine could be much newer but the boat was a 1984 so I "assume" it is also.

posted 07-08-2011 11:52 AM ET (US)            

I am proud supporter of made in America but one must come to the realization that sometimes its not cost effective to buy products made in America. The 2.5hp to 60hp Mercury's being built overseas is the prime example. You must build them overseas due to the small margin in profit and due to the fact that all other companies (in the >60hp market) are building overseas and you are in direct competition. If you build them here, they would be 30% more then the nearest competitor. While some of us would buy them because they are made in America, 99% of others would buy the cheaper one.

posted 07-08-2011 11:54 AM ET (US)            

I am proud supporter of made in America but one must come to the realization that sometimes its not cost effective to buy products made in America. The 2.5hp to 60hp Mercury's being built overseas is the prime example. You must build them overseas due to the small margin in profit and due to the fact that all other companies (in the <60hp market) are building overseas and you are in direct competition. If you build them here, they would be 30% more then the nearest competitor. While some of us would buy them because they are made in America, 99% of others would buy the cheaper one.

posted 07-08-2011 08:21 PM ET (US)            

Here are some facts for you to learn.

http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/htm/history/index.html

posted 07-09-2011 10:06 AM ET (US)            

You dont have any clue how the agreement works.

Admit it, you dont know. You are just speculating and guessing and pretending it is fact. Why dont you produce a document that says this.

"you can't find a shred of evidence to prove otherwise"

I found one on the Tohatsu website that proves otherwise.

Several documents online show its a partnership that started in 1988 to even start TMC let alone a joint venture to produce engines together in the joint venture facility.

You have nothing to go on beside your "feelings" which based on the Evinrude advertising banner are dangerously skewed/biased which just about everyone here can verify.

posted 07-09-2011 12:41 PM ET (US)         

Here are some photos of it, notice the plate say "Made in Japan".

posted 07-10-2011 06:18 AM ET (US)            

Many North Americans probably remember Nagano as the site of the 1998 Winter Olympics. Komagane is a relatively small city--a hamlet by Japanese standards--with a population of around 35,000.

A nice picture of the plant is available on-line.

Almost all references to this manufacturing facility that I can find mention TOHATSU as the owner and operator of this plant. For example, Tohatsu says in their website:

"In January 2005, Tohatsu opened a new state-of-the-art manufacturing plant in the mountainous area of central Japan that boasts over 34,000 [square-meters] of space and has a production capacity of over 200,000 units per year. Tohatsu's new plant uses technologically advanced machinery that is fully automated to produce reliable outboards with award winning reputations."

You can see more images from the plant at:

http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/profile.html

Tohatsu also mention this facility in their corporate profile:

http://tohatsu.co.jp/en/htm/comp/index.html

Here is more information about the Komagane plant, but, again, it seems to be all-Tohatsu in this coverage:

"TOHATSU: NEW STATE OF THE ART FACTORY IN 2005

"After the success Tohatsu are reaping world wide, Tohatsu invested heavily in a modern factory in Tokyo. Tohatsu believe in delivering only Reliability & Qaulity [sic] Salt Water Outboards. The new factory is 200km away from Tokyo in Komagane. It has 3 production assembly lines, 360 factory workers working in 2 shifts and total capacity for 200,000 units. The total factory build up area is 36,000 [square-meters] with futher area available for expansion. The new machines in the factory have increased the production schedules, always aiming to achieve better quality standards & best quality rewards: ISO 9001:2000 & ISO 14001 Certifications. To be in Tohastu's position in being of of Japan's leader in Outboard Manufacturing is no mean feat. In the Tohatsu Factory, all Outboards manufactured are tested individually to ensure that the end delivered product reach the optimum at the final destination."

Source: BoatsAndYachting No. 60, March/April 2005, page 70.

Brunswick mentions (what I assume to be) this same facility in their website, where they say it is a "joint venture with Tohatsu – TMC."

Cf.: http://www.brunswick.com/company/worldwide/primarymanufacturing.php

As far as the plant being a "joint venture" I cannot explain why Tohatsu never brings this up anywhere, but perhaps it is one of those idiomatic expressions in English that does not translate well.

As for the engines made there, they seem to be earning good reviews. Much praise has been given to Tohatsu for their industry-first design of a four-stroke motor with electronic fuel injection which does not need a battery to operate and can be pull-started. As has often been mentioned, the ability to make a modern engine with computer controls, electrical fuel injectors, and which can be operated without a battery is a difficult engineering task. It probably took quite a bit of research and development for this to be achieved, and Tohatsu is rightfully proud of their work.

Below I quote from some previous comments from a participant who indicated he had some first-hand knowledge of the situation:

quote:

---

Brunswick and Tohatsu formed a joint real estate company. That company owns the land, building and a couple of pieces of manufacturing equipment. Tohatsu then leases that plant back from the jointly owned company. The plant itself is 100% under Tohatsu management and control with zero oversight by Brunswick. It builds Tohatsu engines and then labels them under Tohatsu, Nissan or Mercury depending on who is buying what. The designs are from Tohatsu engineers. The sole exception to that is on the 4-stroke, 25-30 EFI model. Some Mercury engineer did have input at some point on its EFI system. It worked anyway so he must not have had too much say in it's design:)

[More from another article from this same fellow]

Sometimes I think Miss Information actually works at Mercury :)
Tohatsu began making the 5-HP and small engines for Mercury in the early 1990's. Up until a couple of years ago it was still routine for [Mercury] to deny any relationship with Tohatsu at all. Even today I hear Mercury employees, dealers, and confused consumers spouting some of the funniest dumb things you can imagine. Some of my favorites [dumb things being said] are:

--Mercury owns Tohatsu

--Mercury uses different aluminium in their engines--that one still cracks me up

--Different parts, built to higher Mercury standards. (Different shift controls on some models, as a whole, Tohatsu parts have a lower failure rate than domestic Mercury parts)

--Tohatsu has a secret plant in China for their own labels and all the Mercury's are built in the Japanese plant(s).

In the U.S. Mercury motors from 30 hp and down are Tohatsu production. In other countries Mercury sells larger Tohatsu models under their own label.

It's a world economy now and loyalty to one brand or another because it's "home built" is a thing of the past. I don't particularly like it that way, but it is what it is.

---

The term "joint venture" does not mean a 50-50 investment or a completely equal partnership. If you look at any photographs of the plant, the words "Mercury" or Brunswick" do not appear anywhere. I know it swells the chest of Mercury brand-fans to think that Mercury is the dominant partner in this "joint-venture" but that is just their North American bias showing.

posted 07-10-2011 06:23 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Not to be pretentious, but, if I say it's so--It's so. I've been heavily involved with them since [1984] and know from whence I speak. I communicate with the top management at Tohatsu on a daily basis and know a lot more than I have a right to about...Things. Do I know everything there is to know about the relationship between Mercury and Tohatsu? Nope. Tohatsu Japan and Mercury blindside Tohatsu U.S. on occasion and what is secret rarely leaks and if it was a secret I wouldn't be spilling it out on the net anyway. But, everything I have related here is public knowledge. You just have to be inside that group of the public that hears, reads and asks the right questions at the right time to the right people. It also helps that I have a friend who was a Director at Mercury in years past when all this was initiated.

Now for anyone who really feels froggy and has the time...Get a look at the [U.S. International] Trade Commission hearing records on the Mercury complaint about Japanese outboard dumping. It has actual info about who makes what, where it is made and actual non-massaged numbers. If your an "outboard conspiracy theorist" your dreams will be realized:)

P.S. If I preface anything with "I think" or "in my opinion" it should not be construed with a guarantee of 100% certainty...Only 99.99%. I think that is the right percentage:)

---

posted 07-10-2011 06:27 AM ET (US)            

http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/pubs/701_731/pub3752.PDF

As mentioned, some of the material has been redacted in the public version, and we are left reading tantalizing tidbits.

posted 07-10-2011 06:30 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Komagane new plant

Plant TOHATSUMARIN Komagane

[In] 2003, production in the outboard motor TOHATSU MARINE reached 115,785 units. This increase [required] acquisition of industrial land Komagane City, Nagano Prefecture. [On] 2005 January 18... was the dedication of the new plant [that] will be manufacturing our TOHATSU MARINE century.

Prior to this, conventional plant Okaya 2004 December 18, ended 61 years of history. Okaya the factory before the war in 1943, was built as a refuge in the war factories evacuated from Tokyo Itabashi, since, has been a vital role along with our manufacturing plants. However, the core facilities in 1955 and has increased since the renovation, to cope with increased production of marine products in recent years, was already at the limit.

January 2006, [Kaneko Minoru ] took over as president of TOHATSUMARIN...[unclear].

In other words, as our management policy, ...the outboard motor and [fire] pump [are the] two pillars of the expansion and improvement of the profitability of product sales made, ended fiscal 2006 revenue of 15.2 billion yen, a record 1,498 and 10,000 . However, profit margins have improved, but still passed from IEZU once, because of that, about 58 percent the proportion of export sales of outboard motor for 95% of the high volatility of exchange rates and material costs is susceptible to. Outboard motor is technically, is to clear the smog in the future, and continue to [unclear] considered in all world markets, increase productivity and reduce costs for the construction of the new plant is absolutely necessary Komagane was.

Komagane is building a new plant in the building, supply of materials, machining, painting, assembly, operation, and bring to a warehouse, and one line of the shipping process, construct a new production line, has attempted to streamline its production did.

The factory was a factory model of Okaya, Nagano Prefecture, once the new plant is beyond commuting distance of Okaya, it can engage in new plant and skilled workers are looking for new talent.

With the concern about the hollowing out of production in many parts of Japan, the plant Komagane our job in the Ina district of Komagane two times as large.

---

I didn't see "Brunswick" or "Mercury Marine" in that article.

Translated from
http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/anniversary/history05-04.html#entry56

Here is a picture from a French marine company's website who apparently are also in business with Tohatsu selling Tohatsu-branded outboard motors made in Komagane. This gives us a look at the sign on the plant:

http://www.fenwick.fr/corpo/img/actu/Tohatsu_Komagane.jpg

Hmm, I wonder if the gentleman on the right is standing in front of the BRUNSWICK logo? Do you think?

posted 07-10-2011 06:32 AM ET (US)            

Here's the killer: in the United States International Trade Commission, the "Tohatsu Marine Corporation" appeared and testified in opposition to the imposition of anti-dumping duties! Now that is some joint venture! It came to Washington to testify against Mercury.

Cf: http://www.usitc.gov/ext_relations/thisweek/wl1_1213.pdf

Here is a list of some of the principals of "Tohatsu Marine Corporation" :

President Mr. Mitsuru Kaneko
Senior Managing Director Mr. Tomatsu Hamananaka
Director of the Komagane Plant Mr. Kazuhiro Masumoto
Director of General Affairs Mr. Tsuneo Tanaka

Tohatsu Marine Corporation ships motors from Komagane to Wisconsin. Here is a bill of lading in which the shipper,

TOHATSU MARINE CORPORATION
4495-9 SHIMODAIRA KOMAGANE NAGANO

sent freight to the consignee

MERCURY MARINE PLANT #12.
W6250, W.PIONEER ROAD FOND DU LAC WI

on a vessel CONCORD BRIDGE which departed from the port of Nagoya and sailed to Long Beach, California in February of 2008.

posted 07-10-2011 06:35 AM ET (US)            

"You dont have any clue how the agreement works. Admit it, you dont know. You are just speculating and guessing..."

posted 07-10-2011 10:07 AM ET (US)            

Before you did hours of research into this (thanks to me), you did not know that it was joint venture and you claimed

"Mercury learned their lesson with Yamaha and made some investment in the ground or facilities there so that Tohatsu couldn't just kick them out at some later date if things got controversial. No matter how people try to spin this, Tohatsu makes engines for Mercury in Komagane, and you can't find a shred of evidence to prove otherwise. "

You were mistaken and speaking without having the correct information.

You now know it is simply not Tohatsu building engines for Mercury but instead a joint venture. The economy of scale simply would not work without Mercury's product at TMC in this agreement. We will likely never know what the percentage of the agreement but to come to the conclusion that it is small simply because of the name on the building is foolish.

posted 07-10-2011 10:38 AM ET (US)            

As you were making the comments before this morning, you really had no idea that it was joint venture. Only now after hours of research do you see the truth that it is a partnership.

They build engines together (joint plant and joint company). Mercury does not simply "buy" the engines as they are part owner not only in the plant but in the entire TMC organization.

posted 07-12-2011 12:50 PM ET (US)         

In this instance being discussed here, it appears that Tohatsu needed Mercury's expertise in outboards, and vice versa. Because these 30HP and lower 4-stroke engines are among the best on the market, I would say the Joint Venture is quite successful. Both parties win.

The Joint Venture can arrange management of the new corporation, in this case TMC, anyway that they want, using the best capabilites of either, or even a third party

To say that the TMC Joint Venture output are not Mercury or Tohatsu engines is ridiculous. They can be either, based on the sales potential of either brand.

posted 09-06-2011 08:08 AM ET (US)            

"If you have done any business with a large Japanaese company, you know what I am talking about. If you haven't, you don't."