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Author Topic:   Extremely strong screw installation

Arch Autenreith posted 04-30-2000 01:53 PM ET (US)
This fix is for problem installations where screws continually loosen up or pull out or just need an extremely strong screw installation.
NOTE: I highly recommend you practice on a scrap piece of wood to see how the TOGGLER is installed to see what to see what you are trying to accomplish!!!
Use a 1/4-20 "TOGGLER" from West Marine.
http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=9866&outlet=
(There're also 10/24 and 3/16-in.) $5.49 each. Drill the hole(s) with the drill size recommended. Be careful to drill only thru the deck and the wood backing and not through the hull. ( 3/4 to 1 inch?)
Here's where the fun starts--There is foam between the deck and the hull that needs to be removed in order for the "Toggler" to be inserted. I used a 4" nail, cut off the head and bent the lower 1" 90 degrees and put it in a drill chuck. Insert the 90 degree end into the hole and run/spin to loosen the foam under the hole you just drilled. Used a Shop Vac to suction out the bits of foam. (This is somewhat time-consuming. Periodically, I had to use a small pick with a hook at the end help with the removal as some pieces were too big to come out only with the Shop Vac.) Simply install the TOGGLERs and use the appropriate stainless steel machine screw.
Good luck. Let me know how my directions were and how the job turned out. If you don’t understand how I did this email me.
archautenreith@hotmail.com

dfmcintyre posted 04-30-2000 07:39 PM ET (US)
Arch -
I have used the same sort of technique you've described, without the Toggler:
Drill through the deck and wood and spun out the foam. At this point I made a circular dam out of masking tape and poured resin into the cavity. After allowing it to setup for 24 hours, I tap into the now hardened resin plug, no deeper then the plug itself.
This way the force is distributed over a larger area, AND the chance of any water penetration is minimized.
Best -- Don
dfmcintyre posted 04-30-2000 07:40 PM ET (US)
One additional note on my post:
During the pour, I finish with the liquid resin about 1/16" above the deck. After hardening, grind it down flush.
Arch Autenreith posted 04-30-2000 11:07 PM ET (US)
Thanks, Dan. I may try your method next time. Q...do you use West Epoxy System? That's what I will use and need to make sure it won't 'disolve' the foam and just make a bigger cavity. Thanks. Arch.
jimh posted 05-01-2000 09:46 AM ET (US)
A comment and two questions:
--West System epoxy will NOT dissolve the foam. Usually it is styrenes that dissolve the foam. Epoxy--at least West System--will not dissolve it.
--[To Don] Do you use machine screws and actually drill and tap into the epoxy plug, or do you use self-tapping screws?
--Has anyone tried Pettit's Flexible Epoxy? They have a formulation that sets up with some elasticity. I haven't tried it because you have to buy about $50-worth in the smallest packaging. I don't have that much curiosity!
--jimh
dfmcintyre posted 05-01-2000 05:28 PM ET (US)
Jim -
I've drilled and tapped the epoxy plug, and in one installation, oversized the hole, poured a slight amount of epoxy into it and then set a s/s bolt into the mix. Once it hardened, I had a stud that mated up with a block of wood that the power trim pump was mounted on. A stainless washer and locknut completed the job.
Best - Don
hauptjm posted 04-26-2001 09:10 AM ET (US)
Resurrection of an old thread. I have used this method as well. Great way to really secure something. Obviously, it has to be used with discretion as to what is being secured, how much stress to decking materials and avoiding a bunch of holes being drilled into your decking. An example of a bad choice to attach something using this method: a T-Top.
Arch Autenreith posted 04-26-2001 09:59 AM ET (US)
Follow up to my 'toggler' method I used 4 years ago. In taking the front railing off the Montauk last week I found a fair amount of water in the cavities. I don't know why I didn't think water wouldn't get into there but it did in a big way. I think I said this before but there are almost no circumstances would I do the toggler route again. But BCWF (before Classic Whaler forum) I couldn't think of any better way. Now I know better. Obviously, to me, dfmcintyre has it right. I have now re-done them all his way. One side comment after doing 18 last weekend: Don't fill them up all the way the first fill as the epoxy get's too hot and as it 'cooks' it bubbles out the top making for a somewhat mess-ier (sp?) job. Fill the holes a little at a time, let it cure a little, then fill a little more each time.
lhg posted 04-26-2001 01:05 PM ET (US)
BW says not to use toggle bolts. The other thing is that methods described here should ONLY be used to repair stripped out screws in the wood backing pads. If there is no wood, BW says not to do this, as you are risking popping the glass away from the foam.
Gep posted 04-26-2001 02:15 PM ET (US)
lhg,
What do you do if there's not a whole lotta wood backing as in my case with a '59 13' sport?

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Author	Topic: Extremely strong screw installation
Arch Autenreith	posted 04-30-2000 01:53 PM ET (US) This fix is for problem installations where screws continually loosen up or pull out or just need an extremely strong screw installation. NOTE: I highly recommend you practice on a scrap piece of wood to see how the TOGGLER is installed to see what to see what you are trying to accomplish!!! Use a 1/4-20 "TOGGLER" from West Marine. http://www.westmarine.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=9866&outlet= (There're also 10/24 and 3/16-in.) $5.49 each. Drill the hole(s) with the drill size recommended. Be careful to drill only thru the deck and the wood backing and not through the hull. ( 3/4 to 1 inch?) Here's where the fun starts--There is foam between the deck and the hull that needs to be removed in order for the "Toggler" to be inserted. I used a 4" nail, cut off the head and bent the lower 1" 90 degrees and put it in a drill chuck. Insert the 90 degree end into the hole and run/spin to loosen the foam under the hole you just drilled. Used a Shop Vac to suction out the bits of foam. (This is somewhat time-consuming. Periodically, I had to use a small pick with a hook at the end help with the removal as some pieces were too big to come out only with the Shop Vac.) Simply install the TOGGLERs and use the appropriate stainless steel machine screw. Good luck. Let me know how my directions were and how the job turned out. If you don’t understand how I did this email me. archautenreith@hotmail.com
dfmcintyre	posted 04-30-2000 07:39 PM ET (US) Arch - I have used the same sort of technique you've described, without the Toggler: Drill through the deck and wood and spun out the foam. At this point I made a circular dam out of masking tape and poured resin into the cavity. After allowing it to setup for 24 hours, I tap into the now hardened resin plug, no deeper then the plug itself. This way the force is distributed over a larger area, AND the chance of any water penetration is minimized. Best -- Don
dfmcintyre	posted 04-30-2000 07:40 PM ET (US) One additional note on my post: During the pour, I finish with the liquid resin about 1/16" above the deck. After hardening, grind it down flush.
Arch Autenreith	posted 04-30-2000 11:07 PM ET (US) Thanks, Dan. I may try your method next time. Q...do you use West Epoxy System? That's what I will use and need to make sure it won't 'disolve' the foam and just make a bigger cavity. Thanks. Arch.
jimh	posted 05-01-2000 09:46 AM ET (US) A comment and two questions: --West System epoxy will NOT dissolve the foam. Usually it is styrenes that dissolve the foam. Epoxy--at least West System--will not dissolve it. --[To Don] Do you use machine screws and actually drill and tap into the epoxy plug, or do you use self-tapping screws? --Has anyone tried Pettit's Flexible Epoxy? They have a formulation that sets up with some elasticity. I haven't tried it because you have to buy about $50-worth in the smallest packaging. I don't have that much curiosity! --jimh
dfmcintyre	posted 05-01-2000 05:28 PM ET (US) Jim - I've drilled and tapped the epoxy plug, and in one installation, oversized the hole, poured a slight amount of epoxy into it and then set a s/s bolt into the mix. Once it hardened, I had a stud that mated up with a block of wood that the power trim pump was mounted on. A stainless washer and locknut completed the job. Best - Don
hauptjm	posted 04-26-2001 09:10 AM ET (US) Resurrection of an old thread. I have used this method as well. Great way to really secure something. Obviously, it has to be used with discretion as to what is being secured, how much stress to decking materials and avoiding a bunch of holes being drilled into your decking. An example of a bad choice to attach something using this method: a T-Top.
Arch Autenreith	posted 04-26-2001 09:59 AM ET (US) Follow up to my 'toggler' method I used 4 years ago. In taking the front railing off the Montauk last week I found a fair amount of water in the cavities. I don't know why I didn't think water wouldn't get into there but it did in a big way. I think I said this before but there are almost no circumstances would I do the toggler route again. But BCWF (before Classic Whaler forum) I couldn't think of any better way. Now I know better. Obviously, to me, dfmcintyre has it right. I have now re-done them all his way. One side comment after doing 18 last weekend: Don't fill them up all the way the first fill as the epoxy get's too hot and as it 'cooks' it bubbles out the top making for a somewhat mess-ier (sp?) job. Fill the holes a little at a time, let it cure a little, then fill a little more each time.
lhg	posted 04-26-2001 01:05 PM ET (US) BW says not to use toggle bolts. The other thing is that methods described here should ONLY be used to repair stripped out screws in the wood backing pads. If there is no wood, BW says not to do this, as you are risking popping the glass away from the foam.
Gep	posted 04-26-2001 02:15 PM ET (US) lhg, What do you do if there's not a whole lotta wood backing as in my case with a '59 13' sport?