posted 04-07-2004 09:02 PM ET (US)        

As you guys know by now, I'm a newbie, so bear with me if this is a really stupid question.

I have noticed a small amount of oil leaking from the cooling intake ports of my 1998 Honda 90-HP after it is in the full up (trailer) position for a few days. It's not a ton of fluid for what it's worth, but it certainly does not look like it's supposed to be there. Is this normal or something I need to give some attention.

For what it's worth, the oil (I assume it's oil as it has that consistancy, however it's blue?) is nice and clean.

Here's a photo:

http://www.covingtonhendrix.com/Montauk/oil.jpg

Also, since this only happens when the engine is stored in the full up position this brings me to another question - what position SHOULD I store the engine in when on the trailer? Not on the road, but on the trailer in my driveway.

posted 04-07-2004 10:13 PM ET (US)            

I guess what I'm REALLY asking is it safe to run the boat like this before I fix it or do I risk really jamming something up?

Also, do you think I need to replace the entire water pump, or just the impeller?

posted 04-07-2004 10:25 PM ET (US)            

Also, I second captreils' suggestion that you replace your water pump if you have not already done so. That's routine maintenance, and it may give you (or your mechanic) the opportunity to solve the oil leak problem, as well.

posted 04-08-2004 07:29 AM ET (US)            

--propeller shaft seal
--upper drive shaft seal

I would guess that you have a bad seal at the upper drive shaft. This will require the removal of the lower unit for service. Dropping the lower unit is not a big deal--it is done annually by many for service to the water pump.

Your biggest problem will be finding a HONDA part and a mechanic!

Also, it could be a case of something spilled into the power head area that has seeped down the mid-cowling and into the lower leg.

P.S. This should be in the MODS/REPAIRS forum!

posted 04-08-2004 07:32 AM ET (US)            

I generally keep my engine tilted down in storage, resting on the highest point of the trim cylinders. On my engine (Yamaha) and many others, you will find three hydraulic cylinder rams. One is used for the tilt range, and two are used in the trim range.

posted 04-08-2004 01:03 PM ET (US)         

I am almost positive that the lower units, and for that matter, the trim tilt assembly are mercury parts. Somebody here should know that, and hopefully will confirm that we can get merc 115 lower unit parts for our hondas. I have a friend with a 115 merc who will have her whaler at my house next week, and I am going to compare the parts.

Sorry to see you have a lube leak. I wouldn't run it until I found out why it was leaking and fixed it. Have you checked the fluid at the lower drain plug? If water has been pulled in as the fluid went out, you will get water out of the lower plug. At the very least, check that often if you run the boat.

You won't find the parts you need at West or the like, but you can get merc parts pretty easily at dealers, or online.

posted 04-08-2004 01:17 PM ET (US)            

If anyone has any tips to offer, please let me know before I take on this project. I haven't yet searched this site...I'm sure there are probably posts available.

posted 04-08-2004 01:37 PM ET (US)            

Go back to your dealer and get a shop manual or repair manual for your engine.

Shop manuals are hard to come by and expensive, but they are more comprehensive and a good reference to have - especially if you're working on your engine yourself and mechanically inclined.

A repair manual (from a publisher such as Clymers) will also detail this sort of repair, however they are less comprehensive...but again, if you're mechanically inclined, they should do.

A Clymer's brand manual should cost approximately 25 bucks, but if you do a lot of work, over the years, it will prove itself well worth the sacrifice of substituting a week of Starbucks coffee in the morning with a home-brew.

Good luck.

posted 04-08-2004 01:55 PM ET (US)            

Like I said, I'm pretty mechanically inclined so I hope I can handle it. I was feeling better about it before reading this post from Jim....

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005986.html

Hopefully I won't have the same result. Also, my local Honda dealer had all the parts in stock, so I guess I've got an albatros dealer or I just got lucky. I even asked him when he could get to it if I wanted to have it done. First of next week was his answer. (For the record, this place doesn't look like the "Maytag repair shop" with guys sitting around doing nothing. The yard is jammed with boats and everyone looked plenty busy.)

posted 04-08-2004 03:43 PM ET (US)         

Actually, lower units do have pressure on them when they sit in the sun all day long. But you are right, the pressure is probably forcing out at the shift or drive shaft seal, but he'll be able to tell when he takes off the WP.

posted 04-08-2004 03:46 PM ET (US)            

Thanks for the suggestions all. I'll post a follow up in the CORRECT forum and let you all know what it was.

posted 04-08-2004 04:11 PM ET (US)            

I was wondering if perhaps the leak might be from the lower unit being filled to the very brim, perhaps on a cold day, and then sitting in the sun on a very warm day. That might force some fluid past a seal.

posted 04-08-2004 08:45 PM ET (US)            

Since you mention the leak occurs when the unit is in the full-up orientation. this may be sufficiently close to horizontal that the leak could occur from either the shift seal or the main shaft seal. It would depend on how far it can be tilted, and this varies among different motors.

The main shaft seal has to function as the shaft rotates at several thousand RPM, so it might be more likely to be a source. The shift shaft does not move very much or very often.

posted 04-08-2004 09:31 PM ET (US)            

I read some more in my Clymer's manual and it suggests doing basically what Ian suggested - draining a small amount of fluid from the drain plug and looking for water or "milky or foamy" fluid as the manual says. When I got home I did just that...no water or anything at all unusual. In fact, the fluid still looks brand new. Bright, clean blue. The shop did replace the fluids on this engine before I bought it (about a month ago) so it is pretty new.

Engine has been in the down position (thanks for that clarification jim) for the last day. No fluid leak.

Also, I checked the lower unit fluid level and it's still full, so if it IS leaking, it is minor. I'm starting to wonder if it is some overspill or expansion issue.

Jim's idea that this may be a temperature related issue may hold some weight since both times I've noticed this have been on warmer days, but the boat was serviced in South FL, and it's only been up to the mid 70's here - it was much warmer there.

I don't know guys...guess I'm scratching my head. I called about getting a pressure test on it and can have it done pretty much any time for about $70 at the Honda dealer. I imagine I can get it done elsewhere cheaper as Bigshot said - it doesn't need to be done by a Honda shop.

Any ideas or suggestions? I was relived by the appearance of the fluid and am thinking this may not be all THAT bad - at least not yet. I'm thinking I may just keep an eye on the fluid and levels for the season, then pull it this winter and put the new water pump and all in then. Is this crazy?

Thanks all for the ideas and your patience with my learning curve. I hope to repay the favor someday.

posted 04-08-2004 10:10 PM ET (US)            

I think so. If oil is getting out, water will definitely get in, and in this case, water is the ultimate enemy. I'd solve the puzzle before running her in the drink.

Then again, I'm ultra sensitive after just having my motor rebuilt this fall/winter. Completely different problem, but anything out of the ordinary now warrants critical attention in my book.

Just my opinion...perhaps you should get a suggestion on potential problems from your mechanic as well before you decide to do it yourself, have them look at it or "let it ride" through the season.

posted 04-10-2004 10:35 PM ET (US)            

I drained the lower unit tonight and pulled it. Lube looks good - nice and clean. I captured it and put it in a glass jar & will let it settle and inspect it again in the morning, but I don't expect to see anything unusual.

Pulled the lower unit. It was really easy. Took me about 20 minutes. Having never done it before, I was a bit worried, but everything came right off clean and without issue.

Pulled the water pump - also very easy - about 10 minutes. I was happy to see the condition of the water pump. It looks brand new & is still nice and soft with no cracks, etc. The wear plate shows very little wear as well. I suspect it was changed within the last few months.

I went to Home Depot and got everything I needed to build a pressure tester. I used a gas line test meter - has a gauge and "bicycle like" air fitting. A few brass fittings and some hose and I was all set. Cost about $20.

Pressure tested the unit to 14.5# per my manual (using a bicycle pump) and guess what......it passed. I let it sit for over an hour under pressure, turned the shafts, etc. with no loss of pressure. Being the skeptic that I am (and given that I seem to have an issue here), I submerged it while under pressure - it sat in the tank for an hour or so.....still no leaks.

Soooooooo, I'm not sure where this leave me. I guess the mystery continues. In one sense I'm certainly happy I don't appear to have a serious problem, but on the other hand I sure would feel better if I knew where the supposed leak was coming from.

Anybody have any suggestions as to what to do now? I’m thinking I’m just gonna put it back together and keep a close eye on it. Please speak up if you guys think of something else for me to look at.

Thanks again,
Chris

posted 04-10-2004 11:03 PM ET (US)            

A common problem is underwater photography is that the
camera housing leaks at one or two feet, but not deeper,
because the greater pressure crams the o-rings into place.

posted 04-11-2004 10:44 AM ET (US)            

Jim, I will follow up tonight on the pressure tester post.

posted 04-11-2004 08:58 PM ET (US)            

I read the manual a bit more closely and there are some engines (remem this book is pretty much for EVERY Honda engine) that requires you to completely disassemble the lower end to pull the seals, so that's where my apprehension came from; however this is not one of those models. On this model, the seals are just underneath the water pump base and seemed to be easily accessible, so I decided to try it myself.

I pulled the base off (6 bolts) and pried it off and could immediately see the problem. The top seal has a spring like washer that is held in place by a rubber bushing. The spring thingie had a little "kink" in it - obviously not making a good seal. It popped out of the base easily enough with a small screwdriver. The bottom seal looked like it was fine - no apparent signs of wear. Popped it out and cleaned up the base plate.

I went to install the new seals and discovered that the new bottom seal is the wrong size. I think they just gave me the wrong one (it's not even close), so I'll go get the correct one tomorrow and see where things go, but I really don't anticipate any problems. I may have to "press" the seals very slightly with a pipe to install them, but it should be pretty easy.

Looks like Jim was right on with his prediction.
I'll keep you guys posted.

posted 04-15-2004 10:32 PM ET (US)            

Just wanted to give everyone the final update (I hope) on this procedure. I FINALLY got the correct seals today. I spent an at my Honda dealer Monday with the seals and base plate in hand with him trying to figure out what was up. He pulled up the number on the computer 15 different ways - same number. Seal OBVIOUSLY doesn't fit - it's about a 1/4" larger diameter. He called his Honda parts rep & that guy looked at it 16 different ways with the same result. Everyone scratching their heads. He pulled out a new base plate (with seals intact) and it had basically the same seals I had - but with some additional collars. Finally, he said he would get to the bottom of it and I left. The only thing they could figure was that Honda had packaged the wrong seals in the envelopes (or tagged them wrong), so they had new parts FedEx'ed to them.

Just came in today and they are correct, so apparently they discovered a problem in their system somewhere. To complicate things further, Honda did a mid-year change - guess what model year...'98.

Anyhow, got home and popped them in. They go in pretty easy. I followed up with a low pressure (thanks Chuck) pressure test and it held just fine. After dinner I went out and put on the new water pump and re-installed the lower unit. Lubed it up and I think I'm back in business.

Thanks for all the suggestions and support on this project. I've learned a lot about the boat, and even a little about myself. I've also learned the Clymer's manuals are worthless if you're a novice. I have done enough of this type of work to realize pretty quick to just use it as a guideline, but certainly NOT a step-by-step guide.