posted 09-11-2002 06:34 PM ET (US)        

I would like to power it with either a Single 225 4 stroke Yamaha or Dual 115hp 4 stroke Yamahas.

I would really like dual engines on my next boat. Do you think the Outrage 22 Transom can handle 800lbs of motors?

Do you think that I would get a lot of porposing with the heavy 4 stroke engines?

I would appreciate comments and suggestions from all 22OR owners.

posted 09-11-2002 08:00 PM ET (US)            

This really is a dilemma. It is like having two 180-pound friends riding around sitting on the cowling of your engine all the time. It has to have an effect on trim, on fuel economy, and on performance.

posted 09-11-2002 08:07 PM ET (US)            

See pic 45. I am running a 1989 225 Johnson with rebuilt powerhead. The engine swings from a 2 1/2- 3' custom single bracket. The 22'OR with standard transom maxs at 240 hp. Whaler drive on the same 22' permits hp up to 300 hp.

I have enjoyed the boat with the 225 hp engine for 3 yrs-- use is heavy. The old 225 carb engine moves the boat along plenty fast at top end- pushes 50 mph. Bracket helps. Out of the hole pulling kids/watersports the 225 does just fine. Actually more power than needed is available.

Sooner or later my old girl 225 Johnson is going to go south. I will repower with a new BombB 225hp Ficht. I like the engine from everyone I speak with or chat with on this site. I understand that a new 225 will actually generate more horsepower than 225 as listed. The weight is approx 100 less than 4 stroke Yams or Honda. If you look at pic 45 on this forum you will see that the static trim of my 22' OR is impacted by the Johnson 225 on the bracket. I do not want more weight out there than I have at this time.

I have a friend with an '89 22'OR and he uses a 200 hp Johnson, no bracket. That boat moves plenty fast.

Thoughts on twins. I fish 20% and cruise/watersport 80% of the time. If it were reversed I go with twins. Otherwise, you are just doubling your possible problems. Stick with the single engine unless you are a biiiiiig offshore guy. Twins are the more expensive setup anyway you cut it.

posted 09-12-2002 10:37 AM ET (US)            

www.continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000955.html

If my motors blew up today and I chose to stay with twins(I like them), I would buy a pair of fire breathing carbed Johnson 115's at 640lbs(How long before they are not available?). Given the current offerings, you would seriously regret hanging two four bangers on this hull, too heavy.

Anybody know what the Commercial 100's the CG used weighed and how they performed?

There is also a thread when I was shopping where Louis stated the CPD, at the time of his purchase, recommended against twins.

I would even venture to say that would go for a new Guardian 22 with a 30" transom. The water may stay out better but it would be considerably more unwieldly and you would lose the desirable attributes of the 22; nimble and light while retaining an ability to handle a decent sea state.

If Ficht proves to be dependable, a single 250 on a hydraulic jackplate would create a monster out of this hull.

Thanks
Chap

posted 09-12-2002 02:50 PM ET (US)         

Only the 25's are seen as twin engine boats, and even there I am continually surprised to see the number of single installations.

I think most of this is simply because of a cost-to-performance return to the owner, certainly valid in these days of outrageously priced outboards, going on used boats. It is further aggravated by the high weights of the mid-range clean burning engines, necessary for twin installations. These Classic Whalers simply weren't designed for these heavy engines. When the 22 Outrage was designed, a pair of 115's weighed about 275 lbs each. Now, the lightest 115 4-stroke, by Mercury, is 386lbs, which is what a Mercury 200HP 2-stroke weighed in 1989. Yamaha's 115 is 415#, because it uses a bigfoot V-6 gearcase.

posted 09-12-2002 04:04 PM ET (US)            

820 lbs. of engines is serious weight, though. It would be nice to see how that setup performs.

posted 09-13-2002 08:08 AM ET (US)            

To me at least, less engines mean 1/2 the chance of problems. Sure.....if she breaks down I am dead in the water, but that's what Sea Tow is for and the Yamaha EFI's are probably amongst the most reliable engines made.

This engine weighs ~500lbs and pushes my 22' Outrage with Tee Top, Front Curtain and W/D to 45mph.

Also, I can get 3mpg at varying speeds. I'm curious how twin 4 strokes would compare, I bet not much better if at all.

posted 09-13-2002 11:51 AM ET (US)            

The 25's really are a twin engine boat. They are rated at an annoying HP and really need a minimum of 300hp just not to be a dog. That doesn't leave much room but to have twins.

Because of this need on the 25+ crowd.. the 19-22 foot boats are really really desireable boats... big enough to have the "big boat" feeling and small enough to use be well powered from a single engine... and the engine makers of the world really markey to this crowd.

posted 09-14-2002 07:50 AM ET (US)            

Let's assume it has a Tee Top etc like my boat. Granted it's longer and heavier, but let's say you lose 10mph top speed, that would still give you a solid 35mph.

Twin 150's with all their drag, cannot be all that different than a single 250hp.

Just thinking out loud.

posted 09-14-2002 09:43 AM ET (US)            

On my 22 I had a 250 Yamaha V-x. On the rescue boat we have twin Merk 115 4 strokes.

Based on my experience, I would (assuming the boat had WD) drop a pair of CR Merc 150 Optimaxs on the back.

The 250 gave the boat a lot of torque list (solved by adding a Stingray Hydrofoil). The CR twins would solve this problem and give great performance.

The 22 cuddy rescue boat is significantly underpowered for my tastes. And the engines are not CR.

One thing to remember about this discussion is all of the different HP rating the 22 got. The rescue boat actually has a smaller rating than my 22 had! I think that Whaler actually had 3 or maybe 4 different rating for the 22. There seems to be no corrolation between model and options, and weight etc., to account for it.

posted 09-14-2002 10:27 AM ET (US)            

I want to be able to go straight across Lake Michigan from time to time. It is an 80 mile offshore run. I can put the kicker on the boat for those days. I can leave it off on the 2mile offshore days.

posted 09-14-2002 02:31 PM ET (US)         

The idea of relying on a trolling motor to keep you safe and get you home when it's 45 miles of cold big seas in all directions does not have much appeal to me. Even incapacitating sea sickness can be an enemy at trolling speeds. When the going gets bad, or looks bad on the Great lakes, you need to move fast, and at least keep the boat at slow planing speeds.

Even with a twin engine 25, I have only crossed Lake Michigan once, and that was way up north where it's narrower and the islands make it only a 45 mile open run. When you're out there with NOTHING in sight, it's nice to see two engines behind you.

Good luck in your search for a 22. They ARE great boats.

posted 09-14-2002 08:20 PM ET (US)            

If money was no object then heck, I'd go with twin 150's, but Yamaha HPDI's. The price difference with twin 150's of any brand vs. a single 250 Yamaha is huge.

Just my $.02.

posted 09-16-2002 04:30 PM ET (US)         

For the same price, I'll take twin 150's any day for 90 mile offshore crossings on the Great Lakes. In spite of an earlier "Lakeboater" thread, this can be some of the most serious offshore boating in the county.

posted 09-16-2002 05:26 PM ET (US)            

Please forward the location where you can buy a Carb'd Merc 150 new for $7500

Thanks,

posted 09-16-2002 06:37 PM ET (US)         

150Hp Saltwater carbureted: $7454
(Counter rotation model is slightly more, since it includes a dual engine tie bar.)

150 HP EFI Saltwater: $9127

150Hp Optimax Saltwater: $10,584

With these prices, the carbureted engine seems awfully hard to pass up on a pair basis. I can't imagine an Opti could be worth $3000 more each. The block is the same.

They also are Yamaha and Bombardier dealers, see their website sundancemarine.com, but don't know how competitive they are on those brands.

I have bought 4 Mercury V-6 engines from Sundance over the years, including my present 200 EFI's, and they are nice to deal with. Short of Bass Pro, I think they are one of Mercury's largest high HP engine dealerships.

posted 09-17-2002 07:47 AM ET (US)            

Thanks ! Those are pretty good prices. The carb'd 150hp would be hard to pass up at that price.

posted 09-17-2002 12:21 PM ET (US)         

I agree that twins look and sound better. I also have to agree that twins offer better maneuverability in tight places. Ok, getting home on plane vs displacement speeds is also a definite plus.

22’s are VERY sensitive to excessive weight at the stern - especially open transom models. Twins will usually weigh more, but some Single + kicker combinations will also exceed the transom rating. For example a Honda 225 and 15 - 4-stroke combination will exceed the 22’s 720 lb. transom limit!

Larry’s assessment of initial cost savings not being there for the single is also right on. A large 4-stroke main with smaller 4-stroke kicker will cost more than 2 smaller carbureted 2-stroke motors.

While operating costs are definitely lower with the single / kicker combination, I find the savings primarily from fuel, with negligible (if any savings) from maintenance. Although there are fewer spark plugs, and parts for the kicker are priced slightly lower, there are still 2 motors to maintain. Kickers usually get more use, so they require more frequent tune-ups. If the kicker is a 4-stroke monthly (sometimes twice per month) oil and filter changes are required. This dwarfs any savings realized from not having to add oil to the fuel.

Having said all that, a single will outperform twins. And while I agree that maneuvering a larger boat with a single can be a nightmare, a 22 Whaler is very maneuverable with a single.

Depending on the conditions and distance from shore, a kicker may or may not get you home. It will however give enough control to keep the boat out of trouble if need be. I also love trolling all day without alternating engines or worrying about fouling plugs. The largest benefit however is the amount of wear and tear the kicker saves the main engine.

Depending on how you intend to use your boat; twins, a single with kicker, or a single without a kicker may be right for you. We troll slowly for Salmon, so a kicker is mandatory. If I were trolling for tuna, I would probably rig with twins. If I didn’t troll, there would only be one (large) engine back there. I think the key is to have the lowest amount of weight possible hanging from the transom.

There are always exceptions.

posted 09-17-2002 03:53 PM ET (US)            

Thanks for your reply.

I am frequently admiring the photos of your boat in the Cetacea section of this site.

I used to have a Guardian 19. I am sorry that I sold it 8 yrs ago.

I really like the way your boat is rigged.
It is very organized and professional.

Would you recommend the dealer that you bought your Guardian from?

If you would buy from them again, please give me their name and phone #. I want to deal with a dealer that has experience in ordering commercial whalers.

posted 09-17-2002 04:29 PM ET (US)         

Finally, Whalerdude, you might want to E-mail Outrageman up in Door County regarding these 4-stroke twins on a 22 WD. He may be able to take you out for a spin.

posted 09-17-2002 10:36 PM ET (US)         

It could very well be that the SeaCraft isn’t as susceptible to the extra weight. But, the twins totaling 230 HP with 2 legs, 2 props, and the extra weight should not match a single 225 HP motor. I can see it happening if the 225 was at the bottom of the 10% variance outboard manufacturers are allowed (obviously not a Merc :-)), while the 115’s are at the top (ie 200 hp vs 260 HP). What really confuses me is how he can add a couple hundred (possibly more) extra pounds at the transom, have the boat sit lower, yet draw less water?

posted 09-17-2002 10:48 PM ET (US)         

I will always remember a couple things:

The first is the passion that both Whaler and the Dealer put into recommending that I buy a 25….over… and over… and over again.

The next is being told that a Whaler drive was NOT available for the 22’ hull : (

Although the WD allowed for higher HP and made the running surface longer, it required more HP, which required larger tanks, which added even more weight to the stern, which really had a negative effect on the hulls performance. Apparently the 22 handles most sea states better when it is light at the transom. One of the chronic problems was the motors being forced underwater while stopping, if backing down, and while running in steep following seas. Apparently the length to width ratio also made it more ‘tippy’ under certain conditions.

posted 09-17-2002 11:47 PM ET (US)         

As for my dealer, YES, I would recommend him, and the other 2 CPD dealers on the West Coast anytime! I bought my boat at M&P Mercury in Vancouver; there is also The Outboard Motor shop in San Francisco, and Shock Boats in LA - all are very knowledgeable dealerships. I’m curious though; don’t they have one in Chicago?

Not all Dealers are allowed to sell CPD, for example most of the newer SeaRay/Whaler dealers do not offer CPD models at all. Odds are that if you find one in your area he will be just as knowledgeable, and it will save both you and the distant dealer a bunch of headaches.

posted 09-18-2002 09:48 AM ET (US)            

You are correct on all aspects except for draft. The single is in a notch and in the center of the hull so the 24 degree deep v now has a lowerunit hanging at its lowest point. The 115's are on the sides so therefore it drafts less water.

He had a 1990 or so Johnson 225 and she was pretty much a dog....maybe 42mph. With the 130 Yamahas she ran about 46 and the 115 Zukis about 44-45. The boat is a BIG 23' and built like a brck SH(Potter 1978 hull). The boat was actually designed to handle twin 235's(believe it or not) so the weight may not be the issue like it is in a whaler. It also has a 170 gallon tank which adds balast.

posted 09-18-2002 01:22 PM ET (US)         

I had these problems with my old hull. After talking to Whaler it became clear that the problem was the extra weight. I think if I was ever to put twins on my boat – it would be any 2 that didn’t exceed 700 lbs, most likely a couple of 90 2-strokes that weigh in at 620 lbs – 115 2-strokes weigh in at just over 700 lbs so IMO they would be the biggest for me. 4-stokes are definitely out of the question :(

posted 09-18-2002 01:30 PM ET (US)            

Your comments regarding weight of the engine affecting performance echo my feelings about weight/performance on my Montauk. I am sticking witht the Yamaha 90 on it because it feels very nimble and balanced. This is really important quality to me in a boat.

Perhaps a single 225 will optimize the good sea handling qualities of the 22 Guardian.

posted 09-18-2002 02:52 PM ET (US)         

Larry knows your area, and from discussions I’ve had with him, it also appears that he cruises more than he fishes. By mounting a couple of 90’s you can still keep the weight down, be able to plane on a single, and really have the best of all worlds. You will sacrifice some top end and cruise speed, but will gain all the benefits of twins.

We never troll for less than 700 hours annually, so in our case the single with a kicker was great advice. In your case however, I would take a serious look at twins.

If you decide to go with a single, I would ask around about the reliability of the new 250’s before settling for a 225. My first choice was a 250; propped right a 250 will make the boat a rocket!

At the time my dealer swayed me away from the 250 and all Optimax products. I’ve since heard that Optimax are doing well, so it could very well be that there are no more problems.

posted 09-18-2002 08:47 PM ET (US)         

“The next is being told that a Whaler drive was NOT available for the 22’ hull : ( Although the WD allowed for higher HP ….”

I think that this is the best place to respond.

1) Yes, it is true that the Whaler Drive was not available for the 22’ when I ordered my hull. In ’98 it was available for the 25’ ($8395) and 27’ ($3224), but they would not install it on a 22’ at any price.

2) I do not know if it is available through CPD today.

3) The statement above represents the reasons that I was given for the WD deletion from the 22’ hull. I’m sure there where more, it was a while ago, and yes, I would have bought one anyway. (I believe my note reflects this)

4) I only responded to one of the emails because it wasn’t a flame and the sender included his real name – not a hotmail alias.

posted 09-19-2002 12:27 PM ET (US)         

I think my posts are clear. I didn’t bash the idea of twins; I actually think that in Whalerdudes scenario it’s probably the way to go.

As for the WD. I don’t see why anyone would doubt that I wanted one. I think they look cool – there’s nothing like trailering a 22 footer that will make most 25’s look tiny. Yeah, there’s some compromise, but isn’t there with everything?

Another email bashed me for taking up so much bandwidth and professing to be an expert with the 22 hull. I have experience with the 22 but don’t think I ever claimed to be THE expert here - all I did was add my 2 cents.

I also received an email from a fella who is considering a 22. We ended up exchanging emails and talking on the phone for a while. He had some concerns, and for his own reasons decided to email me direct vs post here.

posted 09-19-2002 12:48 PM ET (US)            

Disregard any bashers out there. I don't get it.

YOU ARE a 22 Hull expert in my opinion. You are a true classic hull 22 enthusiast that went to a lot of planning and expense to acquire the outstanding rig that you have today.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread.

posted 09-19-2002 12:50 PM ET (US)            

What do you think of Louie's idea of twin 90s?

It is a fantastic engine on my Montauk!!

The power is high and the weight is real low!

I think the Yamie 115 twins might be too heavy.

posted 09-19-2002 01:30 PM ET (US)            

4) I only responded to one of the emails because it wasn’t a flame and the sender included his real name – not a hotmail alias.

I have removed the link to my email address.

I find it sad that people send flame mail because you said the 22 did not come with a WD or whatever(a discrepency).

posted 09-19-2002 02:57 PM ET (US)         

First of all I was wondering if the "225" issue needed clarification on "whose" engine. Not all 225's are created equal, nor maintained in equal running condition. On a general basis, I would also agree with Louie, that apples for apples, a single 225 should outrun a pair of 115's. An old 1990 running against a pair of modern 4-strokes is not apples to apples.

As for Whaler dealers, much less CPD dealers, in Chicago, forget it, except for SeaRay operation way out in small lake country! There are none, as surprising as it seems. Whalers are seen few and far between on lower Lake Michigan. Just never very popular around here. SeaRay rules the area. My Whaler's were bought out of state by necessity.

As regard to my trying to answer questions on this thread, I want to emphasize that I've never owned a 22, although some of my Whaler cruising friends do have the hull, mainly JimH and Kingfish. Regarding twin engine installations, I am interpolating more through experience with twin 18's and 25's.
Having some knowledge of the way he uses his 22 Guardian, I really do consider Louie one of our "resident" experts on the boat. Receiving flame e-mails from readers of this site I think is a disgrace. BW owners should know better.

Jack. I didn't realize you were in greater Chgo (I thought Milwaukee). If you want a spin on a twin engine Whaler, 18 or 25, let me know! I would think modern twin 90's would be good on a 22, but in that HP range I would opt for Johnson or Mercury over Yamaha, even though you have one and like it on your Montauk. The Yamaha 90 is a little low on cubes, and the engines visually look a little small on a 22. See JimH's Revenge 20 with twin 70's, the same size engine overall. For years, the USCG ran twin OMC 100's on their 22. I would guess the new 90's would put out the same HP.

But I would not rule out twin 115's, by any brand, and especially if Yamaha is your preferred choice. They're all about 350 lbs each. My CPD catalog shows a Guardian 22, with raised 30" transom to accomodate twin 25" 115 Mercs.
Looks like a nice installation, and this gets the engines up high. If you get a
new Guardian, order the 30" (barely) notched transom option if blank full transom (for aftermarket bracket), or WD is not available!

Way back in 87 or 88, I was cruising along in my 18 Outrage, twin 115 Mercs, up around Gills Rock in Door County, and I see a Coast Guard 22 coming up on me fast, and motioning for me to stop. When I asked what I had done, they indicated nothing, and just wanted to see my Whaler and engine setup. Not even a safety inspection. It was the engines they were most interested in, and kept saying that's what they needed on theirs. They didn't like the old OMC 100 commercials, and felt they needed more HP. So who knows?

posted 09-19-2002 07:53 PM ET (US)            

With respect to a person leaning towards a pair of Yamaha 115, it seems that they might as well go for a pair of 130s since the 130 weighs the same as a 115 and they would have a little more power for those rare single engine only occasions. No doubt that LHG has proved that the Outrage hull can be significantly overpowered without harming it so with an extra 20 over the max it would be hardly overpowered and might yield a performance equivalent to a single strong 225 (like Mercury's or Bombardier's 225) if a single is faster than its twin equivalents.

posted 09-20-2002 05:24 PM ET (US)         

My reasoning for thinking 90’s vs 115/125 is that I don’t like the Merc 115 / 125’s because of the ‘4/2 cylinder cutoff gizmo’ at 1800 rpm! This (along with counter rotation) was the only reason I powered with 135’s on my last boat. The Johnson’s @ 650 lbs look good; I just can’t say one way or another since I’ve always owned Mercs.

The 22 will probably still plane with a 90 since minimum HP is 85 and I don’t believe they add tabs to the calculation. Once again, I can’t say for sure since I’ve never used the motors, some input from JimH could prove helpful though.

Jim, will the Revenge plane on a single 70?

My first choice is still a single 225 or 250 2-stroke without a kicker. But, if twins are a must, the 22 will perform better with less weight at the transom, so I would definitely go with the lightest.

Another consideration is the larger tank. I’ve had both and prefer the smaller one, again because of less weight. My reasons where that fuel is never more than 50 miles away and my average trip offshore is 25miles (NEVER more than 40). We use the kicker while fishing, and carry extra fuel when heading towards Japan. I should also add that 90% of our fishing is done no further than 10 miles out.

posted 09-20-2002 05:57 PM ET (US)            

I have not called the dealer yet on the price, so after being humbled by that I may have to go with a single motor. That's OK.
I will probobly give Al a call up at Twin Cities Marine. He seems to know whalers.

I get out a lot in Lake Michigan. Last Friday I took out 4 friends from Waukegan to Navy Pier & Back in 3 hours flat (80 miles).
Tomorrow I will launch at Winnetka and work as a safety boat for a sailing regatta off Montrose Harbor. I will be out from 8am-3pm.
Give me a holler on channel 16 if you are out my way.

Where do you usually launch in the Chicago area? I would like to meet up with you on the water this fall.

posted 09-23-2002 11:58 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for tracking me down at Montrose Harbor.

I thought I was dreaming-When I was stepping out of the sailing club whaler I looked across the dock and saw your boat Whale Lure tied up!! Then you let me drive it!! WOW. What a fantastic end to my day on the water.
It was great to meet you and your wife in person. Let's meet again out there soon!

I had never driven a twin engine boat before. It was fun docking with the twin engines.