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Author Topic:   WaterLogged Whaler

BigE posted 12-03-2006 12:49 PM ET (US)
I bought a 13' Whaler Hull for $300 bucks sight unseen. Went to pick it up with a flatbed with a lift gate and found out it was super heavy. I am an Engineering Manager and took it to work. Lifted it with a crane and angled it so water would run out through the fiberglass hull the was damaged. About 3 gallons came out and stopped soon, left it over 18 hours. Put a very accurate crane scale on it and it weighed nearly 700 lbs. Put 12 kw of electric heat on it for 24 hours . Same 700 lbs.
Hull had 400 lbs of water in the hull (52 Gallons) in the foam. Sold it to a guy who was going to drill holes all over to air. I hold out very little hope that It will work.
It would not sink but I would say pulling a vacuum on it to level needed (200 microns) would be hard or impossible. Desolving 27 cubic feet of whaler foam would require a harsh solvent like Methenlene Chlororide and I am not sure it would work.
Tom W Clark posted 12-03-2006 01:00 PM ET (US)
BigE,
You are correct. It is virtually impossible to remover that much water form a Whaler hull.

You might enjoy readding this:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001747.html
John W posted 12-03-2006 03:21 PM ET (US)
I have read on this forum about people getting substantial weight out of 13' Whalers by drilling holes at the bottom near the transom, tilting up the boat and allowing the water to drip out, but this will take several years if it works at all.
Another approach is to cut out the floor, dig out the wet foam, let fiberglass dry out, then paint the interior with epoxy, and re-foam the hull. You would then need to shave & trim down the foam so that it fits the contours of the removed fllor section...then paint the underside of the floor section with epoxy, re-fit the fiberglass section in place and weight it down until the epoxy sets. I have never seen anyone do this, although a boat repair place I spoke with claimed ot have done it several times.
filthypit posted 12-04-2006 11:35 AM ET (US)
Yep, we just bought a '73 Outrage w/ soaked hull - it was too cheap to pass up. When we get to it (got one in line ahead of it), I think we're gonna take the 'dig out the wet foam & re-fill w/ two-part foam' approach. I talked to a local Whaler guy who said he'd done it to several boats and it was the way to go.
If you just want a small pleasure boat, buy another one. If you wanna own/restore an American legend, take your time & fix the wet Whaler.
Good luck!
PeteB88 posted 12-04-2006 04:07 PM ET (US)
What do you have to lose? Get out all those tools and start cuttin - could be a cool thing. I never really thought of digging out all the foam - should work!!
Tonym posted 12-04-2006 08:42 PM ET (US)
Does any one have an estimate on how many gallons of 2 part foam it would take to refill an 18 foot outrage or in other words how many cubic feet of foam actually resides inside an 18 foot hull? Just curious. Tonym
Tom W Clark posted 12-05-2006 10:27 AM ET (US)
Using the overly simple method of subtracting Hull Weight from Swamped Capacity to calculate the volume of the hull, I estimate the Outrage 18 would require over 30 gallons of foam to fill.
There is no ay that removing all the foam and pouring in new foam will equal the strength of the original foam or the strength of the bond between the foam and the fiberglass skins which is the essence of a Boston Whaler and its Unibond hull.
Tonym posted 12-05-2006 01:48 PM ET (US)
Let’s see at $260.00 for a 10 Gallon kit times 3 =
$ 780.00 plus all the sweat equity and the resin and fiberglass to seal it all up, not to mention the primer and gelcoat.
It sounds like a fairly expensive proposition. Tonym
Plotman posted 12-05-2006 02:41 PM ET (US)
Listen to what Tom said. The essence of the strength of the whaler hull is that they are "over foamed". The hull and deck sections are held in heavily reinforced molds - these things are monstorous and have steel reinforcing all over them. Also, the foaming is done before the glass in the hull and deck skins has fully cured so that you get a better bond between the foam and the skins.
This bond between the skin and foam in crucial to the strength of the composite sandwich that results in the whaler's incredible strength.
Quite simply, if you simply dig out the foam and replace it, you aren't going to get the density of foam in the original nor the skin/foam bond.
filthypit posted 12-05-2006 05:38 PM ET (US)
yea, i was told that stringers should be laminated in the hull for strength if you remove all of the original foam filler (and destroy the unibond's strength).
also, we figured it would cost less than $350 w/ bill @ eastern burlap (fiberglass supply co. in norfolk).
the tricky thing is, you must work VERY quickly - and use the 2pt foam in such a way that it has ample room to expand (& trim the excess after if hardens) - if you try to cramp too much filler into a restrictive area (in the interest of est. density), it will cease to expand at all and totally collapse.
i understand the unibond strength-loss issue is of paramount importance. but a boat w/ a soaked hull is worthless. it seems like the complete foam replacement route should be a last resort (before the junkyard).
we currently have two 70's Outrages to restore. the 19ft Outrage we bought was cheap as dirt so i figure it's a good boat for us to learn on.
a glutton for punishment,
filth
John W posted 12-06-2006 10:29 PM ET (US)
I don't think re-foaming would necessarily be any less strong than the original unibond construction if it were done very well. Wetting out with eopxy the entire glass sections to be foamed would allow the foam to cure with the wet epoxy, ensuring a good bond on the hull side. And wetting out the glass "floor" with thickenned epoxy in order to glue the panel to the foam could, at least in theory, be done in such a manner that ensures a good bond between the foam and the fiberglass panel, even though the foam had already cured prior to epoxying the floor down.
Bob Douerty builds Everglades boats in a somewhat similar manner, through their patented process...the foam is cast first and completely cures. Then the cured foam piece is put between laminated fiberglass inner and outer sections after the fact, while the glass is wet. Getting a bond between the cured foam and the wet fiberglass resin is not a problem for them. I would think you could get a good bond between the foam and the panel in a repair like this using epoxy, which would bond better than polyester resin.
I don't think Whalers get any significant strength from the foam being more dense than if it cured out of the mold. The huge metal braces that the molds are held in are there to keep the hull from warping under the pressure of the foam, but I don't think the cured foam is meaningfully stronger or more dense than any other foam...the pressure just ensures no voids and a great bond between the glass and the foam. I have held a chunk of foam from a Whaler hull, and it didn't feel particularly different from any cured 2 part foam, and it certainly wasn't strong...obviously the strength comes from the bond between the foam and the fiberglass, like any foam core construction. And you can certainly make a cored panel, such as a balsa core, foam core or plywood core deck, in such a way as to be stronger than the original. Whalers are really just a type of foam core sandwich construction...I think you could make a re-foamed whaler as strong as new, or at least stronger than it would ever need to be.
But even if I'm right, I would imagine it would be a huge, messy, time consuming job.
filthypit posted 12-07-2006 11:20 AM ET (US)
2 part foam = definately a mig mess
anyone interested in acquiring/using some should call bill wager @ eastern burlap in norfolk (757) 622-5914 - they are happ to answer questions. their prices are WAY-Y-Y below west, boatersmart, etc., and they ship ups.
he said their 2pt foam is equal to the Whaler foam density and is highly recommended for Whaler repairs.
yea, the story i got from Whaler was not the quality of aftermarket replacement 2pt foam - it's the adhesive properties. epoxy resin has REALLY strong bonding strength.

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Author	Topic: WaterLogged Whaler
BigE	posted 12-03-2006 12:49 PM ET (US) I bought a 13' Whaler Hull for $300 bucks sight unseen. Went to pick it up with a flatbed with a lift gate and found out it was super heavy. I am an Engineering Manager and took it to work. Lifted it with a crane and angled it so water would run out through the fiberglass hull the was damaged. About 3 gallons came out and stopped soon, left it over 18 hours. Put a very accurate crane scale on it and it weighed nearly 700 lbs. Put 12 kw of electric heat on it for 24 hours . Same 700 lbs. Hull had 400 lbs of water in the hull (52 Gallons) in the foam. Sold it to a guy who was going to drill holes all over to air. I hold out very little hope that It will work. It would not sink but I would say pulling a vacuum on it to level needed (200 microns) would be hard or impossible. Desolving 27 cubic feet of whaler foam would require a harsh solvent like Methenlene Chlororide and I am not sure it would work.
Tom W Clark	posted 12-03-2006 01:00 PM ET (US) BigE, You are correct. It is virtually impossible to remover that much water form a Whaler hull. You might enjoy readding this: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001747.html
John W	posted 12-03-2006 03:21 PM ET (US) I have read on this forum about people getting substantial weight out of 13' Whalers by drilling holes at the bottom near the transom, tilting up the boat and allowing the water to drip out, but this will take several years if it works at all. Another approach is to cut out the floor, dig out the wet foam, let fiberglass dry out, then paint the interior with epoxy, and re-foam the hull. You would then need to shave & trim down the foam so that it fits the contours of the removed fllor section...then paint the underside of the floor section with epoxy, re-fit the fiberglass section in place and weight it down until the epoxy sets. I have never seen anyone do this, although a boat repair place I spoke with claimed ot have done it several times.
filthypit	posted 12-04-2006 11:35 AM ET (US) Yep, we just bought a '73 Outrage w/ soaked hull - it was too cheap to pass up. When we get to it (got one in line ahead of it), I think we're gonna take the 'dig out the wet foam & re-fill w/ two-part foam' approach. I talked to a local Whaler guy who said he'd done it to several boats and it was the way to go. If you just want a small pleasure boat, buy another one. If you wanna own/restore an American legend, take your time & fix the wet Whaler. Good luck!
PeteB88	posted 12-04-2006 04:07 PM ET (US) What do you have to lose? Get out all those tools and start cuttin - could be a cool thing. I never really thought of digging out all the foam - should work!!
Tonym	posted 12-04-2006 08:42 PM ET (US) Does any one have an estimate on how many gallons of 2 part foam it would take to refill an 18 foot outrage or in other words how many cubic feet of foam actually resides inside an 18 foot hull? Just curious. Tonym
Tom W Clark	posted 12-05-2006 10:27 AM ET (US) Using the overly simple method of subtracting Hull Weight from Swamped Capacity to calculate the volume of the hull, I estimate the Outrage 18 would require over 30 gallons of foam to fill. There is no ay that removing all the foam and pouring in new foam will equal the strength of the original foam or the strength of the bond between the foam and the fiberglass skins which is the essence of a Boston Whaler and its Unibond hull.
Tonym	posted 12-05-2006 01:48 PM ET (US) Let’s see at $260.00 for a 10 Gallon kit times 3 = $ 780.00 plus all the sweat equity and the resin and fiberglass to seal it all up, not to mention the primer and gelcoat. It sounds like a fairly expensive proposition. Tonym
Plotman	posted 12-05-2006 02:41 PM ET (US) Listen to what Tom said. The essence of the strength of the whaler hull is that they are "over foamed". The hull and deck sections are held in heavily reinforced molds - these things are monstorous and have steel reinforcing all over them. Also, the foaming is done before the glass in the hull and deck skins has fully cured so that you get a better bond between the foam and the skins. This bond between the skin and foam in crucial to the strength of the composite sandwich that results in the whaler's incredible strength. Quite simply, if you simply dig out the foam and replace it, you aren't going to get the density of foam in the original nor the skin/foam bond.
filthypit	posted 12-05-2006 05:38 PM ET (US) yea, i was told that stringers should be laminated in the hull for strength if you remove all of the original foam filler (and destroy the unibond's strength). also, we figured it would cost less than $350 w/ bill @ eastern burlap (fiberglass supply co. in norfolk). the tricky thing is, you must work VERY quickly - and use the 2pt foam in such a way that it has ample room to expand (& trim the excess after if hardens) - if you try to cramp too much filler into a restrictive area (in the interest of est. density), it will cease to expand at all and totally collapse. i understand the unibond strength-loss issue is of paramount importance. but a boat w/ a soaked hull is worthless. it seems like the complete foam replacement route should be a last resort (before the junkyard). we currently have two 70's Outrages to restore. the 19ft Outrage we bought was cheap as dirt so i figure it's a good boat for us to learn on. a glutton for punishment, filth
John W	posted 12-06-2006 10:29 PM ET (US) I don't think re-foaming would necessarily be any less strong than the original unibond construction if it were done very well. Wetting out with eopxy the entire glass sections to be foamed would allow the foam to cure with the wet epoxy, ensuring a good bond on the hull side. And wetting out the glass "floor" with thickenned epoxy in order to glue the panel to the foam could, at least in theory, be done in such a manner that ensures a good bond between the foam and the fiberglass panel, even though the foam had already cured prior to epoxying the floor down. Bob Douerty builds Everglades boats in a somewhat similar manner, through their patented process...the foam is cast first and completely cures. Then the cured foam piece is put between laminated fiberglass inner and outer sections after the fact, while the glass is wet. Getting a bond between the cured foam and the wet fiberglass resin is not a problem for them. I would think you could get a good bond between the foam and the panel in a repair like this using epoxy, which would bond better than polyester resin. I don't think Whalers get any significant strength from the foam being more dense than if it cured out of the mold. The huge metal braces that the molds are held in are there to keep the hull from warping under the pressure of the foam, but I don't think the cured foam is meaningfully stronger or more dense than any other foam...the pressure just ensures no voids and a great bond between the glass and the foam. I have held a chunk of foam from a Whaler hull, and it didn't feel particularly different from any cured 2 part foam, and it certainly wasn't strong...obviously the strength comes from the bond between the foam and the fiberglass, like any foam core construction. And you can certainly make a cored panel, such as a balsa core, foam core or plywood core deck, in such a way as to be stronger than the original. Whalers are really just a type of foam core sandwich construction...I think you could make a re-foamed whaler as strong as new, or at least stronger than it would ever need to be. But even if I'm right, I would imagine it would be a huge, messy, time consuming job.
filthypit	posted 12-07-2006 11:20 AM ET (US) 2 part foam = definately a mig mess anyone interested in acquiring/using some should call bill wager @ eastern burlap in norfolk (757) 622-5914 - they are happ to answer questions. their prices are WAY-Y-Y below west, boatersmart, etc., and they ship ups. he said their 2pt foam is equal to the Whaler foam density and is highly recommended for Whaler repairs. yea, the story i got from Whaler was not the quality of aftermarket replacement 2pt foam - it's the adhesive properties. epoxy resin has REALLY strong bonding strength.