posted 07-03-2006 07:51 AM ET (US)        

Thanks,

posted 07-03-2006 09:38 AM ET (US)            

Thanks,

Erik

posted 07-04-2006 03:31 AM ET (US)            

I'll have to wait until the weekend do do any further investigating of the throttle cable movement or TPS sticking as you suggested. I'll call the dealer this evening to see if he checked the TPS while we were out on the water with him. I hope it's a simple solution because the dealer was talking about some drastic measures like total engine replacement.

Between 1100 and 1400 (only) the engine can't make up its mind it seems. It jumps from the one speed to the other. It only started having this problem after 40 hours or so. It sounds like a TPS related problem if you ask me.

I'll keep you all posted.

posted 07-05-2006 09:18 AM ET (US)            

http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/erik069/ 1984%20Montauk%20Restoration/?action=view¤t=ThrottleCAM.jpg& refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

Is it possible to see, on these pictures, where a washer should be placed under the TPS mounting screw if the sensor should stick?
I played around with the lever and couldn't feel or see anything out of the ordinary. What I did find a bit surprising was that the lever connecting point allows plenty of room for mis-alignment. This because it is connected via a ball-type hinge. It was very mis-aligned when I looked at it but I doubt that this could have much influence with the problem.

Erik

posted 07-05-2006 10:29 AM ET (US)            

On my older 90 E-TEC I found that it was possible to overtighten the securing screws; I suppose a flat washer could have been used beneath the TPS. On the newer motors there may or may not be a soft rubber gasket beneath the TPS (there is one on the older motors) and I suppose the washer could go on the stud prior to placing the TPS on the motor.

posted 07-16-2006 03:08 AM ET (US)            

I get the impression that the problem described in my first post of this topic, isn't the only thread where the same problem floats to the surface.

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/003720.html

In this thread Harv states the following:

quote:

---

Well I installed the 13 pitch prop yesterday and got 5500 RPM. the stutter remains between 3800 and 4200 RPM
If i nudge the throttle forward at 4200 it runs up to 4800 on its own.

---

and Alex K says this:

quote:

---

My new engine runs smooth in all RPM now and I can cruise at the desired RPM's without the engine revving up or down on its own.

---

The first 40 hours of engine use showed no signs of any problem. We have a 17-inch standard aluminium prop on the engine at the moment. Would changing the prop have any influence? i.e. a 15-inch pitch?

Does anyone know what the latest software version is for the E-Tec 90?

I hope the dealer can solve the problem. I fear however, that he doesn't have a clue how to himself. He will need factory assistance and who knows how long that will take. This is exactly what I feared for before recommending the purchase of this engine.

posted 07-16-2006 04:14 AM ET (US)            

It has been 6 days since the boat has been at the dealer. (not 9)
I also still think the E-Tec is an amazing engine. I'm a bit dissapointed with the dealer and how he's handeling the problem.

posted 07-16-2006 07:12 AM ET (US)            

I have asked two dealers in France for a new 225 e-tec for repowering. Only one responding (via e-mail)...
Does this people really want to do their job ?
If this can help, call Michel at BRP France : cell #+33 6 20 52 22 34.
He is a professionnal and really knows (I think) this motors.
Hope this can help

posted 07-17-2006 04:46 AM ET (US)            

Alex, sorry to hear that you are still having the problem with you engine. That totally sucks after all the trouble you have been through. What we will be doing, for the time being, is wait until the dealer here has contacted the factory and sent a specialist. It's the only thing we can do at the moment. I know quite a few fishermen in Holland who have E-Tec engines and will be asking them if the have also encountered this problem before. I'll also be asking for advice on capable and honest dealerships in Holland. I can totally understand that a dealer can have trouble finding a problem with a new, sophisticated engine. What we can't except is that a dealer is not honest and wont communicate with you about the problem.

posted 07-22-2006 08:01 AM ET (US)            

Is there more to the story about your motor, its history, or a problem with the dealer?

posted 10-24-2006 10:22 AM ET (US)            

Changing the spark plugs helps....for something like 10 hours. I know we run the engine at slow speeds a lot (for trolling) but 10 hours is unacceptable.

At times, especially if the engine has been shut down for a while, it will hardly react to the throttle position when getting underway. It will hesitate as if you try to go WOT and then go immediately go to idle. The only thing you then can do is idle back to the ramp. NO ALARMS ARE INDICATED.

The dealer hasn't got a clue of what's going on and he has told us so much BS that he has lost all his credibility. Nevertheless this engine still has more than 2 years of warranty. Something will have to be done.

There must be a reason why these spark plugs are fouled as fast as they do? Maybe the engine doesn't heat up enough? I don't think it's dirty fuel because we have installed a fuel filter/water separator recently and the problems are still there.

Any suggestions are welcome. I really hope this engine starts getting more reliable.

posted 10-24-2006 10:40 AM ET (US)            

Sorry about your troubles. Do you have a printout of the profile (performance report)?

That will tell you about the temperature profile.

posted 10-24-2006 11:32 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

On the earlier inline motors where the TPS is held on by screws, sometimes there is a tolerance stackup that can cause a binding condition, and most of the time, you cannot even feel it. The trick is to install a thin #10 flat washer under the TPS at each screw hole to raise it slightly.
Take the motor to your dealer, or if he does dock calls with the latest software have him update the EMM to the 2007 calibration and allow for a new adjustment for the amount of TPS % before the throttle plates start to open.

---

posted 10-24-2006 11:38 AM ET (US)            

I think you are getting good help here but correct me if I am wrong: if you have a near new E-Tec with two years left on the warranty, isn't it the dealer's and the manufacturer's responsibility to fix your motor and make it run properly?

posted 10-24-2006 12:12 PM ET (US)            

Thanks everyone.

posted 10-24-2006 12:56 PM ET (US)            

One other thought comes from the comment regarding suspected cold operation -- has the thermostat been checked for debris and proper operation? Should be something fairly simple to check.

posted 10-24-2006 01:26 PM ET (US)            

Try to phone Michel (BRP France).
I phoned him. I know he is a mechanic representative.
And helpful.

My 0.02

posted 10-24-2006 01:38 PM ET (US)            

Thanks again,

Erik

posted 10-24-2006 01:41 PM ET (US)            

Erik

posted 10-24-2006 02:44 PM ET (US)            

If it is the temperature / thermostat setting, ask the dealer to apply a bit of gasket glue to the gasket. The factory does not take this step. I'd the gasket isn't seated properly then the thermostat won't be able to work optimally.

Just another thought for your list.

Regards,

posted 10-24-2006 03:20 PM ET (US)         

Erik, for being a "certified BRP field tester", you should get a free case of XD100 oil!

posted 10-24-2006 05:00 PM ET (US)            

I understand Erik is in Belguim. I've shipped hardware over to him for the Montauk and received Belguim chocolates in return!

I agree not all dealers are created equal. I stated the obvious to show my empathy with Erik and Eddy. If I were in their shoes I think I would be ticked.

posted 10-24-2006 05:34 PM ET (US)            

One can only hope that all mfgrs would be so very responsive even when the dealer is not living up to the expectations. Eventually the attitude will trickle down to all dealers.

posted 10-24-2006 07:02 PM ET (US)         

The factory delivers a Lemon and the dealership gets blamed by the ContinuousWave spin doctors.

Why not manufacture and ship a Lemon-free product in the first place, and spare the dealership this headache, reputation damage, ContinuousWave bashing, and loss of future customers?

posted 10-24-2006 09:34 PM ET (US)            

You are often right

Except for the times when you begin your post with "Do I have this right?" Or "Let me get this straight."

It is at that point when whatever flows from your fingers onto the keyboard is most often mistaken at the best or twisted to be misleading at the worst.

My observations lately.

I generally expected better, but remain sadly disappointed.

First, you are comparing a negative interaction with a mfgr rep to a negative interaction with an independent dealer. In the case you refer to, the local dealer stepped to the plate to play the role of hero, saving a customer for the mfgr. In this case, we have not had an interaction with the mfgr yet.

If past performance is indicative, then BRP has recently handily trounced Merc in that regard. It seems that rising to the competition makes one sharper than having the vast majority of your business handed to you. Hundreds of American companies have learned that lesson over the years.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them

Cheers

posted 10-25-2006 12:47 AM ET (US)            

hey try this site here, i have been lurking on there for a while getting more info about the etecs.

http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zeroforum?id=51&days=14&page=1

there are a few guys that are evinrude techs that chime in all the time.

good luck

posted 10-25-2006 06:11 AM ET (US)            

I do not know exactly were you are located in Belgium but there is a good dealer located just over the border in Holland. I have known him for years Even after 10 years he gecognized my face. He has a website too. This is the adress

Het adres van Liebau is: Liebau Albert Watersport Speciaalzaak
Boulevard Antverpia 10
4703AX Roosendaal
telefoon 0165 534358
fax: 0165 563453
website: http://www.liebauwatersport.nl/

Maybe he can help

Met vriendelijke groet (Regards)

posted 10-25-2006 06:29 AM ET (US)            

Nogmaals hartelijk bedankt!

Erik

posted 10-25-2006 08:07 AM ET (US)            

My experience with the Ficht DFI system is that spark plug gap is important for optimum smooth operation. I'm sure that is also the case on the E-TEC. On the Ficht 225s that I have, the gap specification is 0.028 inch (~0.7mm) and when the gap erodes to approximately 0.045 inch (~1.1 mm) the motors do not run quite as smoothly although they still run.

When I first got my motors (used), I didn't know to check for the spark plugs gap increase caused by electrode erosion. I was having a stalling problem on one of them. The motor would start OK when the ambient temperature was warm but when the ambient temperature was cold out it would not start. I ultimately pulled the plugs to take a look for fouling and found that the center electrode had been eroded right down to the insulator, there was no electrode sticking out beyond the insulator. What amazed me was that with a gap of something like 0.100 inch (2.54 mm), 3 times what is called for in the specification, the motor would still run if I could get it started although it would stall at idle without any warning making for some interesting docking manuevers.

posted 10-28-2006 04:57 PM ET (US)            

The first 2 pictures are of the plugs from the bottom cylinder.

http://tinyurl.com/yn3jsm

http://tinyurl.com/ynz6a6

The other pictures are the top plugs. The plugs in the middle looked the same as the top ones.

http://tinyurl.com/yajz3d

http://tinyurl.com/ymwydr

These plugs have 40 hours of use now and you could feel that something was wrong after 10 hours or so.

There is quite a bit of difference between the bottom spark plug and the other 2. The anode on the bottom plug looks like it's almost worn out right down to the top of the isolator. Could there be something wrong with the injector of the bottom cylinder?

Erik

posted 10-28-2006 08:26 PM ET (US)            

Bottom 1 is horribly eroded. 40 hours would be 2400 miles in
a car at 60 MPH. Does this motor have separate power packs?
If so, swap them. If there's a power pack per cylinder,
swap bottom 1 and top 2. If there a power pack per pair,
swap the power packs. See if the bug moves.

posted 10-29-2006 01:29 AM ET (US)            

The plugs I removed were installed by the dealer. The index on these plugs were in line with the gap. They were all 0 degrees ofset. The bottom plug was tightened tighter than the other two.

I indexed the new plugs in the same way. I also used a torque wrench. For the top 2 plugs I used 20 Nm (15 ft-lb) torque. They have approx 80° positive offset from the injector. The bottom plug needed 30Nm (22ft-lb) torque to get a 60° negative offset. Not perfect but within the specifications.

I also had to swap the plugs from one cylinder to the other to get this acceptable arrangement.

It's clear that if you want a 0° offset you have to be very flexible with the torque and play around with many sparkplugs to find the best suited thread entrance.

Thanks,

Erik

posted 11-02-2006 02:26 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for your input. I don't think the sales manager for BRP Europe is talking about us. He's located in a different part of Belgium and I have never met him before. He may be aware of out case via the dealer we go to. It would be nice to know however how he solved the problem on the boat he was talking about. You know, after changing the spark plugs the problem is temporarily solved. It's after something like 10 hours that the problem gradually builds up.

I sent the pictures of the spark plugs via e-mail to the dealer and he gave us a phone call. He also said that it isn't normal that the bottom spark plug is eroded as badly as it is. He promised to send me the data from this engine via e-mail. I haven't received it yet but he told me he would be out of town for a few days for a sales meeting. As soon as I get it I will post it here. He also said he has ordered a new injector for the bottom piston. Let's hope it works. I don't know why but his tone of voice was different when I spoke to him. He seemed more willing to help out and get the problem solved. Maybe more people lurk around here than we all think.

posted 11-02-2006 07:02 PM ET (US)            

Good evening agent LHG.

Six years ago, the French-Canadian government, with the cooperation of French-Canadian corporations and Quebecois separatists, began training an elite band of computer operatives in a dark riverside warehouse outside of Montreal. Their mission: to infiltrate American-based Web sites and covertly denounce American brands in preparation of the upcoming release of a new technology exploited by a major French-Canadian company. This technology, also used for the nefarious purposes of the German automakers, would call into question assumptions made by American and Japanese-owned engine makers, and might expose certain engine makers to considerable financial pressures based on multi-million dollar technology development programs.

Specifically, these special e-forces were trained to simultaneously cover-up any possible bad news about technology used by French-Canadian companies, while playing down the technologies of American and Japanese-owned engine makers.

We are changing your original mission to spread seeds of doubt and discontent about Yamaha motors and the illegal practices of that company in the United States. Your new mission, should you choose to accept it, is to hunt down and expose these French-Canadian e-agents in online boating communities and chat rooms across the internet.

Be especially careful in chat rooms where the moderators may have any Canadian connections, for these e-fluential people could be compromised. Specifically if they have a French-sounding last name. Or if they have a silent consonant in their name. Yeah, those sneaky bastards are the worst – even their name is hiding things from you!

We realize that you have built up a considerable amount of goodwill capital on certain sites, and regret that you may have to begin spending that capital – but your mission is of the utmost importance. You can not fail. You MUST expose these agents and their plot to take over the world with their technology and to ruin our goal of complete single-brand transom ownership on all “good” brands of boats, including your much loved Boston Whalers.

Additional agents will be working with you, covertly of course, to overcome the powers of these French-Canadian e-forces. You will recognize “friendlies” through the exchange of secret code words and phrases, such as “With black in back, you lead the pack,” and “Go with Black or Run in Back.”

Please meet at the rendezvous point for additional instructions. That is all.

End music.

posted 11-03-2006 04:50 PM ET (US)            

I must have missed the communique that allowed you guys to abandon the covert nature of your mission! Did that happen at the rendezvous referred to in the message from headquarters, or did you get a call directly to your shoe phone? :o)

Erik -
Have you heard anything new about this? I'm going to be talking to my dealer tomorrow morning, so I'll put in word there and see what he thinks it could be. Of course, it's easy to speculate from an internet forum, but hard to be correct without physically seeing the situation.

I wish you continued good luck. I'm confident that BRP will take care of you once you find out the source of the problem.

Dave

posted 11-05-2006 09:34 AM ET (US)            

We were out with the Classic Montauk with the 90 E-Tec. As you know I just replaced the spark plugs. It didn't give us too much trouble. Just at the end of the first day. After almost 7 hours of constant trolling, the engine hesitated while getting on plane and going to WOT. After a few minutes we didn't feel any more hesitation. The second and third day we didn't troll much and did a lot of drift fishing with dead baits. The engine didn't hesitate once when we ran it. It doesn't seem to like long, extensive periods of slow running.

I haven't received the engine data from the dealer yet. Maybe he'll send it next week.

Erik

posted 11-05-2006 02:43 PM ET (US)            

Renault's market share in North America has been declining, and I don't think they really make much of an effort to sell their product here anymore.

Bombardier's manufacturing roots lie in high-speed rail and advanced commercial passenger jet aircraft. I realize there is no comparison in the degree of engineering or design needed to manufacture a commercial passenger jet as compared to something really high-tech like a bowling alley or a pool table.

posted 11-06-2006 12:13 PM ET (US)            

Refer your dealer to service bulletin 2006-07(S). This was recently published regarding spark plug life (and how to greatly improve it). The bulletin addresses cold running engines.

posted 11-06-2006 02:39 PM ET (US)            

Erik

posted 11-07-2006 12:51 PM ET (US)            

OMC went bankrupt before being bought by an airplane company.

Outboards don't fly.

posted 11-08-2006 11:08 AM ET (US)         

Except for the guy who tried to stick it to Mercury with the Verado lightning episode, complaints on this Whaler oriented website from these 4000 new 2006 Merc-Whaler owners about Opti, Verado or 4-stroke EFI problems have been about zero from what I can tell.

Regarding these old Whalers that you guys love so much, the overtone on this website is that E-Tec is the engine of choice, and where the votes are going, equipped with Merc props of course to snap up their performance. Actually, it's not, and a lot of loose Opti's and 4-strokes are bought, all brands. It's just these buyers don't have problems, nor a need to post inferiority complex about their puchase. But going with the spin, it seems that maybe 10 old Whalers here have been re-powered with Evinrudes, and at least half of them seem to have blown up or needed other major pain-in-the-butt work, destroying the owner's confidence in long term reliability and boating fun. Or maybe it's just the E-tec buyers are born complainers about problems and top speed?

So using these numbers and information on CW, it appears that an Evinrude buyer has a 400 times greater chance of problems than a Merc buyer would have. That is what I would call a real 'Rude Awakening. Since we do not see the complaints from Yamaha, Honda and Suzuki 4-stroke repowers here either, the same risk factors may apply there.

posted 11-08-2006 07:51 PM ET (US)            

ContinuousWave: Mercury Outboard Defense
Concentrating on Defending the Mercury Outboard since 2000

posted 11-08-2006 11:20 PM ET (US)            

And I'm not "Larry" ;-)

posted 11-09-2006 02:57 PM ET (US)         

Didn't this happen to Glen E of the Verado Club also?

posted 11-09-2006 04:52 PM ET (US)            

What makes it worse is, my favorite boat, and the two I use the most, are a 26 twin Whaler and a 21 single Whaler.

posted 11-09-2006 07:18 PM ET (US)            

Do you define "enemy lines" to mean any thread that is discussing E-TEC? Since you don't have anything productive to add to this discussion, I assume you still see yourself as being on some sort of "covert" mission behind "enemy lines" to disrupt things.

Perhaps you consider CW as enemy territory, now that it has been overrun or otherwise compromised by BRP agents hell-bent on ruining the world.

It must represent some kind of "professional" challenge for you to claim to be an upstanding member of this site - on one hand condemning those who you are convinced have come here to ruin and destroy the site, - all the while doing your damn best to do just that yourself. In your zeal, you have become what you despise.

Where is the helpful and knowledgable LHG we all respected and admired so recently?

I'm starting to wonder what you have on JimH, he let's you pop into random threads and drop unfounded claims and inciteful comments with reckless abandon and the zeal of a fraternity boy.

You must have had a loooong summer with no boating.

Don't worry, I winterized my motors last weekend, but it's so easy to do it again (automatically), I'm happy to bring my 18 over to the lakefront on Saturday so you can get your fix. Haven't seen you on the water all year. Some of that fresh Lake Michigan air might do you good.

posted 11-09-2006 11:09 PM ET (US)         

A few others in the thread might owe XS an apology for accusing him of being me, too.

posted 11-10-2006 02:47 AM ET (US)            

I already had a conversation with JimH about this thread. I'll ask him the next time I speak to him to find out if I owe him an apology. If I do, then he'll get one post haste.

posted 11-10-2006 08:46 AM ET (US)            

I'd like to welcome XStech here to this site.

Even though we prefer different colored outboards, he is a fellow professional who is well versed in his field. I read every one of his contributions here and on other forums and respect his knowledgable posts.

posted 11-10-2006 02:41 PM ET (US)            

But Larry, I have a Black Max on my Outrage 22' transom.
Please be factual and constructive.

Erik needs some help. Erik doesn't ask for hijacking this thread.

Tight lines

posted 11-10-2006 02:49 PM ET (US)            

I've been out of the country for work these past 4 days and have been able to follow this thread but haven't had the time to reply yet.

Let me first of all thank Jimh for not throwing this thread in the trash can yet. I think the original thread concerning the 90, E-TEC problem is a valuable thread and has helped me out in analyzing the situation. We are getting closer and closer to solving the problem and I'm sure we will eventually find and fix the reason for these pre-worn-out spark plugs. This thread may also be able to help out other E-Tec owners that have the same problem now or in the future. Many thanks to the people here for their much appreciated advice and input.

I am also a bit surprised and disappointed by Larry's remarks. I'm not going to take it personally but I find the expression "E-Tec test dummies" a bit over the line really.
I have always had the highest respect for his opinion and the knowledge he has concerning Whalers, Mercurys, props... and keeping them in top shape. It's like Jimh always says: you are what you write...To me it looks like he's having pleasure in the fact the we're having problems with our E-tec engine. An engine which cost us 11.000 Euro (13750 USD) that was built in the USA. It doesn't make sense for Larry to be laughing at me as an European "E-Tec test dummy" when in fact this money helps provide jobs in the USA.

Erik

posted 11-10-2006 05:33 PM ET (US)         

1. Returning after 10 months was clearly a mistake, and I won't make it again - see below. I failed to learn the lesson others have been more successful in doing.

2. The public remark about some kind of collusion, blackmail or corruption between Jim and I was the end of the line for me around here. Just plain stupid and ignorant, and clearly without regret. Jim has probably deleted more of my posts than anybody's, except perhaps Whalerguy and the political nuts.

3. The test dummie remark was for the person who isn't even bright enough to figure out that "lhg" and "LHG" are the same person,(duh) and who stalks me constantly with other assorted stupid remarks, even when I'm not around. If this person is your representative, be my guest, and be prepared for the fallout from others, too. I went to caps because some earlier people here, since successfully departed, were calling me "ihg". I'm surprised the rest of you don't read well enough to figure it out. But if the rest of you are so concerned that test dummies was meant for E-tec buyers in general, take my word that it was not, and I apologize for my poor composition. Field testers or test subjects is a criticism on the management of the BRP Company, not you personally, like the 1998-2001 Optimax attacks were on Mercury management. Furthermore, I didn't invent the field tester concept nor produce the engine, nor sugg1est you buy them. Or do they, alone, but certainly not Mercury, get a pass for putting out "troublesome" engines. That's what a lot around here think. Mercury certainly got bombed for it here. If so, also be my guest and see the world your biased way.

4. It's fairly common talk over the web for people who have bought troubled new outboards since 1998 when the first DFI's appreared, to often say they were tired of being the Company's field testers. I can think of Evinrude Ficht first, then Mercury Optimax, then Yamaha HPDI, and now again, Evinrude E-tec. All DFI's, incidentally. Hello again. Jurisprudence and Trafficlawyer come to mind with early Opti problems and bashing. Buyers of all FOUR of these brands have rightfully complained about being stuck with product not really ready for release, bad judgement on the part of ALL of these companies, considering the hard earned money that people spent on them. So as far as I am concerned, what's good enough for Ficht, Optimax, and HPDI owners to take, is good enough for the infomercialed E-tec and it's attack on Yamaha F150 and F225, and implied stupidity of those people who would buy them. One does get tired of this E-tec superiority propaganda, which it clearly is not.

So that's what I think, and I don't care whether you guys like it or not. I'm just plain tired of boating websites.

posted 11-11-2006 12:34 AM ET (US)            

mod·er·a·tor
Pronunciation: 'mä-d&-"rA-t&r
noun

1 : one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR

2 : one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a : the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b : the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c : the chairman of a discussion group

posted 11-11-2006 01:28 AM ET (US)            

Pronunciation: "kän-fl&-'grA-sh&n
noun

1 : FIRE; especially : a large disastrous fire; a fire whose heat is so intense it generates winds which suck in more combustible material to sustain it

posted 11-11-2006 10:05 AM ET (US)            

So..... how about this weather we're havin?